Part II with Kye Goalby now posted

[Ran Morrissett]

What are three design features that you would like to see more of and what are three features you would like to see less of?

Those two questions ought to be part of every Feature Interview that we do with an architect and they probably ought to be questions 1 and question 2. Based on those answers, you either immediately identify with the architect's point of view or write him/her off as not being of much interest. And I don't think that is overstating it.

In Kye's case to the first question, he provides four, being fairway contours, less bunkering, no rough and ground game options. We just talked about those four very things at Cabot this past weekend and I couldn't possibly agree more with his points. In some ways, they represent a 'less is more' philosophy which is of great interest to me right now. Too many courses have an abundance of features screaming for your attention and cumulatively they are too 'loud.' Clearly, Kye would not participate in such an endeavor and if his name was attached to a project, one could rest assured that the right balance of giving the golfer something to do without knocking him over the head would be realized.
 
And talking about getting buy-in to an architect's perspective,  the question 'Throughout your travels in the past several years, what are three of the neatest features/holes that you have seen? Why do they stand out to your eye?' does that nicely too. Anytime someone starts talking about Brancaster, North Berwick and Lawsonia as Kye does, you know you have found a kindred spirit.

Many other topics are covered including his work at Princess Anne with Tim Liddy. There is a great photo of the second green from there which seems high in the middle and then gracefully falls away on several sides. The course never had that kind of quality when I was growing up in Virginia, that's for sure. Also, there are several other outstanding ground contour photos throughout Part II so have a look.

Dan Wexler and Bob Harrison are up next and they have a tough act to follow, kind of like going up to Portrush after you have been consumed by County Down!

Cheers,

[Tim Liddy]

Great golf course design and construction, just like playing great golf, is difficult.

To illustrate how much time it takes to reach heights of greatness, Krampe & Ericsson (1996) conducted research with expert musicians. They discovered that professional pianists all shared a similar characteristic. They all spent a certain amount of time within their passion. The authors found that the best performers spent approximately 8,000 hours, and the amateurs practiced approximately 2,000 hours.

Malcom Gladwell’s best-seller “Outliners” translates the 10,000 rule into everyday examples by citing Bill Gate’s never-ending hours of computer programming to the Beatles’ constant nightly playing in clubs in England before they appeared on the Ed Sullivan show.

Building and designing a golf course is no exception (sorry to all the part time architects in the world). The time required for a golf architect/builder to achieve elite status is also ten years or 10,000 hours of intense involvement.

In my mind Kye Goalby is in this elite status. It is evident immediately when the dozer blade hits the ground.

[Dunlop_White]

Good work, Kye! Thanks again for sharing. The sequel is better than the first.

[RJ_Daley]

I think the interview with Kye is one of the best ever here on GCA.com.  One reason is that his answers are so well written and thoughtful.  I think Kye could also be very successful writing because he explains things so well and creates a mental imagery of his subject where one feels they 'get' some of the technical things he describes about a very obscure set of work skills of being a great operator and shaper.

IIRC, Kye was one of the early guys contributing comments on the old discussion board that came prior to GCA.com.  I always thought of him as being very young when he first started coming up on these discussions.  As it turns out, he may have been a few years older than I thought.  But, it seemed like Kye and Brian Schneider were among the very few who were then just young guys embarking on a new and wonderous journey looking for opportunities to do their thing.  NOw, they are really old salts and highly experienced vets of many a travel and construction site, with skills that make them masters of their craft. 

Kye mentions getting inspired while in the seat listening to Beck on his I-pod.  That made me think of Beck the master bringing along that young bass player, Tal Wilkenfeld and allowing the growth in her talent and enthusiam that is obvious in watching them.  Maybe that is sort of like Hepner or Urbina or the older Renaissance guys tutoring and inspiring these young guys as things progressed in these mentor relationships.

[Sean_A]

Well, anybody who is into the Dude Abides and Napoleon has to be a square chap.  Kye seems like a very interesting person and your questions bring this out very well.  I was especially pleased to read about bluring the edges, less bunkering and more ground contour - concepts all very dear to me for a great many years.  This is one of the best interviews thus far in what has to be one of the greatest series of pieces on design and golf in general.  Cheers to both Ran and Kye for taking the time to do this interview.

Ciao

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,

The second instalment of the feature interview with Kye Goalby has not disappointed. I have two questions born of ignorance.

The idea of grassing lines is mentioned when Kye says that the team had been made “..... aware of grassing lines and of using them (which often actually means hiding them)”. I have a naive idea of what this means viz. a clever blending of the turf grasses into the neighboring native grasses; possibly with fingers of each intruding into the other. Is this so? If so how can one actually “hide” these transitions. Is this done primarily along fairways?
My second question relates to carving out a golf course from rocky terrain which, as Kye describes it, requires “the eternal removal of boulders from playing areas”. Once this is done do rocks and small boulders continually work their way to the surface over time as the ground freezes, thaws and undergoes “micro-upheaval”? I know that after tilling stony ground (in a rose garden for example) and thinking one has removed the vast majority of stones, shale etc. that one season of freezing and thawing throws up a whole new population of rocks.

The Hielander

[Tom_Doak]

The idea of grassing lines is mentioned when Kye says that the team had been made “..... aware of grassing lines and of using them (which often actually means hiding them)”. I have a naive idea of what this means viz. a clever blending of the turf grasses into the neighboring native grasses; possibly with fingers of each intruding into the other. Is this so? If so how can one actually “hide” these transitions. Is this done primarily along fairways?

The Hielander

Colin:

My entire crew (especially Jim, Bruce, and Brian Slawnik) have spent years working on this detail and they would probably prefer that Kye does not reveal all the secrets in one interview.  It is clearly one of the things that makes our work different from others' because I have not seen much evidence that other architects look out for this or even care about it.  Where we have seen other courses get it right is more likely due to the efforts of superintendents over the years.

The simplest illustration would be how raising a green up close to eye level and draping the putting surface over the edges slightly makes it look like it's floating in space ... you can't see the collar holding your ball on the green, and it gives you a sense of insecurity over exactly where the green stops.  Jack Nicklaus didn't like that on one of the holes at Sebonack and he was pretty surprised when I told him that's what we were going for.

You can apply the same ideas all over the golf course, in different ways.  I won't say more than that for now.  But, as Kye illustrates, the idea is spreading fast because a bunch of guys who have worked with our crew are now clued in and trying to expand it.  I could see several examples of the idea in the pictures of the Dunes course at The Prairie Club, and I'm sure that was the input of Kyle Franz or Will Smith rather than Tom Lehman.

[Peter Pallotta]

A yes, sir! to everything that's been said. Thanks much for Part 2 gents.  Kye is indeed a fine writer, and he (and Sean and Colin-Tom) do hit on the crucial point, the blurring of lines. More and more, it seems to me, more and more are aiming for natural and more and more are coming up short on that one key detail/skill.

Peter

[Mike McGuire]

When we took some trees out from behind our #1 green the disappearing edge effect became apparent. It was always there but the longer view now allows you somehow notice it.

Even when you stand on the front of the green you can't see where the back of the green ends. Its very cool.

I wish Tom Doak would share some more of these tricks!

[Steve Lang]

  RJ DAley.. i'd bet for Kye that Beck is not jeff Beck that you refer to.. and Tal is something isn't she!


vs
+


no contest .. JB +TW.. 6&5

[Yancey_Beamer]

The routing of Rock Creek.
Yes,the Cruden Bay of Montana
A Tom Doak stroll through the property.

[Mike_Young]

Very good interview....
In part 1 TD questioned the odds of a golfer/player becoming a good shaper.  Below is a foto Kye had sent me recently of himself when he was just beginning and a shaper in "cracker barrell " apron....  that guy's name was Craig Metz. GOOGLE HIM  He shaped for me for several years when I was beginning and had such a passion for golf design and a constant search for more and more.  Some would have just considered him a shaper.  BUT he was much more....google the guy..AA at Texas A&M in 1965..(I think might have won the national tourney), played the tour, his Dad was second in the Masters and traveled with Hogan becoming the head pro at Shady Oaks in FW Texas.  He could call Hogan or Nelson whenever he wished and he did...(even let me meet him when his father died) and then Craig died shaping a job for us in Ga.
I bring up all of the above not to detract from KYE but to show how much a good player can bring to a team when he really has a passion for design...TD says players to shaper are 1 to 3 odds..I give it 2 to 3    And it looks lke they stick together form that foto....

[Anthony Gray]

The routing of Rock Creek.
Yes,the Cruden Bay of Montana
A Tom Doak stroll through the property.

  The Cruden Bay of Montana?


   Anthony

[RJ_Daley]

Apparently, Mr. Metz had a special affinity for great golf courses...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1870&dat=19701123&id=1d0pAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mtEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1361,6426183

[Don_Mahaffey]

Another great interview and I agree with RJ in that Kye is a good writer who explains his thoughts very well.

That hypothetical golf course he described is interesting. The 700 k irrigation system has already been designed and installed at a course I know very well with single head control, complete coverage (DU 84%), computerized central, VFD pump station, all for 700K or so. Irrigation is stupid expensive and in most cases it's because of “industry standards” and decision makers just don't want to push too hard in this area for fear of being accused of installing an inadequate system. Really, what they need to do is find the right super, but that is another issue.

My thoughts about mowing lines. Definition, which means showing off mowing lines has been the "high end" look that many strive for. Lots of stripping, heights of cuts, and all the rest is much more the norm than making the course look like mowers are never even out there. 10 years ago when I visited Scotland I came away very impressed with not only how the courses played, but how they looked as well. Many of the courses had an unkempt look, yet the turf was fine and they played great. I don't know if they tried to hide their mowing lines as much as they just didn't have mowing lines. While I agree that Tom and his guys have been talking about mowing lines for a while now and they are spreading their ideas, there are guys out there who also are going away from definition and toward a more natural or low input look. At Wolf Point we talked about mowing lines, but I don't think we ever started shaping anything extra in an attempt to hide them. What we did do was eliminate the use of different mowers as much as possible, meaning we had fewer lines. If you ask me that's a lot more practical then doing any extra dirt work to create a landscape that allows you to hide lines. I know that's not the way its always done as I believe most of the time it’s just something that guys like Kye make sure they consider when they are building a hole. But, do that AND reduce the number of mowers on the course and you'll get the right look. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to talk about doing great job hiding mowing lines while presenting a golf course with stripped tees, stripped fwys, and a stripped approach all cut with a different mower. Maybe I don't see the fwy/rough line, or rough/native blends well, but if I can see where every mower made it's last pass then all this mowing line talk hardly makes sense to me. If hiding mowing lines is just about making the edges of the course blend in, then I guess you can do that and still have a manicured look down the middle.  I think it should be more than that. It should be about trying to get the entire golf course to sit well within its surroundings. That means fussing over it all, not just the edges. What I think looks great is when the designer, client, and super all agree on that look and they pull it off.

[Tom_Doak]

Don:

I agree with your point about the maintenance of the course going with the same unmanicured look ... the best example out there is Westward Ho!, where there are no mowing lines, because the sheep graze the edges.

But you can't expect the shapers to do anything more than they are doing; they aren't mowing the place.  At least Kye and most of my guys understand that the dirt is not the finished product and that grassing (and grassing lines) are going to add contrast later.  I think a lot of the reason for courses being overshaped is that a lot of shapers think they have to do it all themselves.

As for not doing extra shaping to hide the mowing lines, in many cases, we don't, either ... we are just paying way more attention to where we stop tearing up the native grasses so that transition will be better hidden.  But, we have often built extra bunkers to help break up a long mowing line in a dune setting.  Hiding the lines on a hole that is a valley through the dunes is 100 times harder than hiding them on relatively flat ground; that's why the work Bruce & company did at Ballyneal is so impressive, their work along the edges was hiding things in plain sight.

[Sean_A]

Don:

I agree with your point about the maintenance of the course going with the same unmanicured look ... the best example out there is Westward Ho!, where there are no mowing lines, because the sheep graze the edges.

But you can't expect the shapers to do anything more than they are doing; they aren't mowing the place.  At least Kye and most of my guys understand that the dirt is not the finished product and that grassing (and grassing lines) are going to add contrast later.  I think a lot of the reason for courses being overshaped is that a lot of shapers think they have to do it all themselves.

As for not doing extra shaping to hide the mowing lines, in many cases, we don't, either ... we are just paying way more attention to where we stop tearing up the native grasses so that transition will be better hidden.  But, we have often built extra bunkers to help break up a long mowing line in a dune setting.  Hiding the lines on a hole that is a valley through the dunes is 100 times harder than hiding them on relatively flat ground; that's why the work Bruce & company did at Ballyneal is so impressive, their work along the edges was hiding things in plain sight.

Tom

I agree with you about sheep and mowing lines.  20 years ago regardless of sheep more links blurred the fairway lines when the tall whispy rough was much more prevalent - it is very rarely seen these days without thick undergrowth.  That said, Westward Ho! is most certainly not the best example of blurred mowing lines - the stupid rushes see to that and that has always been the case. Get yourself to Kington and see how the lines can realy be blurred.  Of course, golfers must then put up with wierd shit happening in fairways, but this is really the ultimate in blur. 

Ciao   

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

I swear to you, the last time I was at Westward Ho! I could not find a mowing line even standing on the edge of the fairway looking right down at it ... it was early spring of course, maybe they weren't mowing much yet.

[Yancey_Beamer]

Anthony,
In The Confidential Guide, Second Edition,1989 Tom describes Cruden Bay."The art of routing is a poorly documented one,but anyone keen on design would do well to study the layout of Cruden Bay."(A description of the course follows)
"The genius of this is that the golf course is routed exactly the way you might be inclined to wander the property if there were no golf course here."
I,ve discussed this with Tom and he makes the point that this is not always possible.However, at Rock Creek I feel that this has been done.

[Joshua Pettit]

10 years ago when I visited Scotland I came away very impressed with not only how the courses played, but how they looked as well. Many of the courses had an unkempt look, yet the turf was fine and they played great. I don't know if they tried to hide their mowing lines as much as they just didn't have mowing lines.

Don,

I know of greenkeepers in The U.K. that mow their fairways only 6 times a year on average.  Compare that with a lot of courses here in The States that will mow their fairways 3 to 4 days a week during the growing season.  I think their low to almost non-existent fertility programs have a lot to do with the lack of mowing lines that you are referencing.  

Less inputs = less........well you know the drill.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Other than a bit more time consuming to mow, what is wrong with square tees?

[Kye Goalby]

Lynn,

There are places square tees look ok to me - such as a relatively flat, parkland site.  My issue is what I feel is the overuse of the concept and the perception by  some that this is a style that was used by all the "classic" era archtiects.  I can't even count how many guys I have talked with that think these types of teeing areas are the reason we call them tee "boxes".  

Where the concept gets to me is when the tees are created by forcing a square peg in a round hole. (pardon the bad pun).

My pet peeve is mostly when the square tees are forced upon a land form rather than fitting the tee to what the terrain gives you, or when multiple, repetitive sized tees are lined up like soldiers, dominating  the foreground of a hole, creating a man made linear distraction to the more natural elements of the golf hole.  It just seems to be a trend that is  overcooked and overused.


Rj and others.,

I appreciate the compliments about the writing, but I kind of have to laugh, as all of my former English teachers would  strongly disagree with you! (I have the old report cards to prove it)

Also RJ,  Steve Lang was correct, I was talking about Beck (Hansen), not Jeff Beck.


Finally, Colin asked how to hide grassing lines, but I think Tom Doak fired a shot across the bow to tell me to shut up!  

Actually I am not stupid enough to give away any real tricks or secrets. I am sure others can figure out how to do it if they concentrate on it and Tom has given enough hints on this and other threads that someone who really wants to figure it out, or cares about it enough to figure it out, has a good head start.

[Joshua Pettit]

A sure way to avoid grass lines:

[Norbert P]

 As can be discerned through Kye's writings and raconteuring, he has strong and sound opinions. Beyond those expressions roils a hard-working juggernaut of creative energy with a crawler dozer or excavator.  I didn't know he got his inspiration from Beck . . .






















                                     

 Kye, thanks for the patience and guidance.   (Thanks also for introducing Tom Paul to this site.)

   The always effluent Slag Bandoon

[Kye Goalby]

   The always effluent Slag Bandoon

Slag,

I always wondered what that nasty stench was in the basement of the farmhouse in Walla Walla.  Now I know!