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Wyatt Halliday

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Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2010, 05:20:47 PM »
Regarding Chicagoland: I may be in the minority here but I thought Olympia Fields did a fine job of identifying the best player that particular week. They backed off on the rough a bit and caught some weather which led to ideal scoring conditions. Even so, I think only four players broke par. Also, it was fun for me to see a new host site that I was completely unfamiliar with. From what I saw on TV it looked like a great course.

Phil McDade

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Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 05:26:37 PM »
Garland:

All reports here suggest the USGA has had a significant say in changes in the course for both the upcoming US Amateur, and presumably after that the US Open. Yes, the Amateur was awarded before the change in ownership, but the USGA did award the public links tourney, held last year, prior to the course ever opening under its first owner.

Here's a pretty good interview with the new owner that details some the issues with the course -- conditioning being a big one.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/91274844.html

"The course closed because they had a misguided owner bent on screwing it up."

I think this is an oversimplification of what is a pretty fascinating and complicated story...


Bill Seitz

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Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2010, 05:27:51 PM »
On a personal level, although this was seemingly inevitable, it's sad for two reasons.  First, I play Dubs a fair amount, and would love to have seen an Open there (though I can settle for the BMW).  Second, the things they absolutely had to change at Erin Hills were the things I kind of liked.  I'd never played a hole like #2 before, with that tiny green.  I'd never played a hole like old #7 before, where I'm aiming at a rock on a par three and just guessing whether or not the club I hit was the right one.  I don't think I'd want to play those types of holes all the time, but once every year or two was something to look forward to. 

That ridge on the 15th green, however, was a piece of junk, and they really did need to fix that.  I'm not sure if they did, but If that wasn't part of the renovation, that wouldn't make sense to me. 

Steve S., regarding a Pine Meadow hypothetical, I see a couple problems.  First, I don't think there's really all that much room for corporate tents.  Where there's any real estate between holes, it's all pretty heavily wooded.  For me, that's one of the charms of Pine Meadow, that sense of isolation on almost every hole.  Although, they could have built a really cool platform between the tenth and 11th fairways on that lake that would have looked pretty awesome.  Also, it's just too wide.  Sure, they can grow the rough and narrow the fairways, but I think it would look kind of dumb with so much rough between the tree line and the fairway.  Kind of unnatural.  And selfishly, Dubs already costs too much.  Pine Meadow is expensive to walk, but I can justify it.  I'd hate to see green fees jacked up $30 or more there, which would have been nearly inevitable.  It's probably the course I play more than any other in Chicago, though, so it would have been interesting to see what they would have done with it.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2010, 05:33:28 PM »
Phil,

As you may have notice I used a little hyperbole.

However, the USGA asked for a few things from Mr. Lang, and he kept deciding to do more and more way beyond what was asked for AND against the advice of the GCAs involved.

Does your WSJ article say that? The article I read, probably Golf Digest, said that.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2010, 05:51:56 PM »
Garland:

Here's my sense, in both reading (a lot) about this course since it first came on the radar screen nearly a decade ago, and in talking with folks around Wisconsin about it, as well as those who have played it:

-- Lang bought a really cool piece of land, with some terrific land forms and contouring.

-- He was a golfer, and a golf fan, and wanted to build a real monument to the game, uncluttered by housing, that could attract a big-name tournament, with the US Open being the ultimate get.

-- He had the good sense to bring in some solid architects to look at it; Doak did a routing for it, and the credentials of Hurdzan and Co. are pretty solid.

-- He thought, based on Herb Kohler's success with his Kohler and Haven courses, that he could pull off the same thing -- i.e., a high-profile course in Wisconsin that would be supported by state residents in terms of regular play but also utilized for majors.

-- The original course, from everything I've read and seen on some GCA threads, is really polarizing -- the blind ridge of the 1st, the tiny green at the 2nd, the blind Dell homage (#7), a few others. My initial thought, in reading the reports of it from GCA golf folks that I respect (Dan Moore, Shivas, others...), was that it was a cool course that lots of GCA folks would eat up, but not necessarily something the USGA would embrace for the US Open. I'm not sure that's Lang's "fault" (for lack of a better word).

-- Did Lang get in over his head? Probably. Do I think it will "make" a successful US Open course? Who knows? They'll make it as hard as they want to, and will direct some changes that are clearly at odds with the original vision of the course (no Dell hole, no mini-postage-stamp green...).

In the end, I think Lang deserves a lot of credit for his original vision -- a decade ago, he bought some land and dreamed it would host the US Open. That's going to happen.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2010, 06:20:18 PM »
...
In the end, I think Lang deserves a lot of credit for his original vision -- a decade ago, he bought some land and dreamed it would host the US Open. That's going to happen.

I don't fault him for his vision.
An interesting parallel is Chambers Bay. The county exec had the vision, pushed it through, and got the US Open right away. Then ran for state wide election and was defeated soundly. These vision guys seem to have problems just like the rest of us. ;)

My understanding was that Lang was at best a marginal golfer if he was one at all before buying the property. So his was a fish out of water story from the get go.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2010, 08:14:04 PM »
Is this Hurdzan/Fry's first USGA Open?
Coming in 2024
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~Maybe some more!!

Chris Flamion

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2010, 08:18:31 PM »
I for one am bummed but completely unsurprised that the USGA is heading elsewhere.  Sadly enough I can think of no other course other than Olympia, that is Open "capable" in Chicago.  It is going to be a long long wait I fear.

As a note Medinah is out because it is the PGA's now not the USGA's.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2010, 09:54:51 PM »

My understanding was that Lang was at best a marginal golfer if he was one at all before buying the property. So his was a fish out of water story from the get go.


I'm not convinced that his abilities as a golfer had much to do with what has unfolded with Erin Hills. Herb Kohler was/is a pretty crappy golfer, although a really enthusiastic one. But I think Kohler has been pretty savvy about his golf projects -- savvier by a fair margin, compared to Lang.


Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2010, 10:00:10 PM »
7 years to make it worthy.

Greg Ohlendorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2010, 10:37:55 PM »
Very sad to think that Chicago will now wait even longer to host an Open. The Olympia event was excellent and had it not been for a few last minute course adjustments, the winning score would have been very Open-like. Hard to believe that the Midwest slot for the Open goes to an untested new venue.

Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2010, 11:22:54 PM »
Is this Hurdzan/Fry's first USGA Open?

Yes. Although word is Calusa Pines may get a Mid-Amateur before the '17 Open.




Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2010, 11:58:38 PM »
Personally I'd like to see ithe Open return to Olympia Fields which is a wonderfull test of shotmaking.  However, I believe they picked Erin Hills because its the best piece of golf property in the Midwest.  It has the length which is now sadly lacking at OF to challenge the best golfers.  Mike Davis has to love the flexibility the course offers in how it can be set up from day to day.  The are many very good holes, a couple of short par 4's (the 2nd green while expanded is still extremely small and is still as quirky as the original) and the stretch on the back nine from 11-15 is superb while the finishing 3 are quite strong.  Yes there probably will be more changes and the conditioning needs to drastically improve (and I hope they get rid of all that scruffy looking Hawthorne trees), but in the end, given the superb natural characteristics of the land, I think Erin Hills will prove to be worthy venue and a true test for the best golfers in the world. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2010, 12:13:08 AM »
What's odd about a selection like this, is how it was selected;  there seems to be no reward for a golf club that has paid it dues for decades, metaphorically speaking. Rewarding the new kid on the block, is just plain weird, likely illustrating how golf is not the focus, revenue from corporate tents is. Not to mention how allowing the ball to get out of control, has made the courses that have paid their metaphorical dues, obsolete.

The reality that Medinah is the Jewel of championship golf in Chicago is very telling. :'(

Maybe Chicago Highlands could step in and save the day?  ;)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rob Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2010, 12:48:30 AM »
Erin Hills has a outstanding piece of property and a solid and enjoyable course (in 2008). It reopens in August this year. Go play it. I would be surprised if many on this board dislike the course.

It will be a great venue for an Open.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2010, 03:45:38 AM »
There's a lot of empty land around Erin Hills for parking, there are also only two-lane roads to get there. Look for off-site parking (Miller Park?) and shuttles, like many majors these days.

Don't know what the reworking is like, but the original Erin Hills was a delight once you got past the first hole, and the flexibility to host anything.

Should Cog Hill get an Open? Yes, I think so, and with Frank Jemsek already having said he'd take care of Cook County, that problem re: Olympia Fields is no longer a problem. The 62 Tiger Woods scored last year would be a major problem if it was someone else shooting it. With Woods (see Pebble Beach, 2000), not so much.

I don't think Erin Hills knocks Cog Hill out of an Open, based by Mike Davis' review last year. I think it just delays it. Davis told me: "Cog Hill was not on the list prior to the redo. Now it's got to be considered very seriously. Several Midwest sites passed all the initial tests of being good enough, including Cog Hill and Olympia Fields."
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On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2010, 08:02:44 AM »
I would rather see a US Open on Erin Hills than Medinah...

I think it will be great.
I like the golf course a lot-I just hope the changes don't suck the character out of the course.
After watching the USGA turn Bethpage into a private course and Shinny into a muni, it's always good to see what the next surprise will be
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Derek Dirksen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2010, 08:16:39 AM »
I could be wrong about this but I heard Lang didn't even play golf?  He is just a big fan of the game. 

From what I have been told Erin Hills pretty much had it locked up for a long time now.  They really were not considering anyone else.  They basically told Erin Hills they had the Open last year. 

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2010, 08:52:42 AM »
There's a lot of empty land around Erin Hills for parking, there are also only two-lane roads to get there. Look for off-site parking (Miller Park?) and shuttles, like many majors these days.


Tim:

I think the logisitical concerns about EHills hosting a major are way over-rated; access might actually be a bit easier than it is at Whistling Straits (inaccessible from the East save by boat!). Most fans will come from three major metro areas -- Milwaukee, Madison, and Green Bay/Fox Valley -- and they will likely access the course from three different directions, using three different four-lane highways. EHills will have to close off for public use the county highway (O) north of the course (where EHills itself is accessed), but I can see three or four shuttle lots, all less than a mile from the course entrance, being set up to handle traffic and parking. I went to the PGA at the Straits, and the shuttle system there was quite good, I thought. There is very little around Erin Hills, which means less traffic overall in the area, and quite a bit of room for remote parking lots (bonus: there are two daily masses at nearby Holy Hill, plus daily confessional, for the golfer or fan so inclined...)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2010, 09:15:08 AM »
Imo, the Jemsek's missed a great opportunity. Their land is ideal for golf. Ythey should've re-started with a completely new master plan. Hired one of the craftsman who know how to uilize great golfing ground and built two great courses. Dubbs is forced onto the site and Rees's change only compounded the forced look.    
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 09:25:41 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2010, 09:23:29 AM »


From what I have been told Erin Hills pretty much had it locked up for a long time now.  They really were not considering anyone else.  They basically told Erin Hills they had the Open last year. 

Would you buy Erin Hills for 10 million and then close it, and declare it walking only, if you didn't have the Open promised?

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2010, 09:24:55 AM »
There is clearly more to the story about Olympia Fields.  Just because Furyk shot 8 under doesn't disqualify it...anyone remember Pebble 2000, they still got there?  There must be another issue.  I have never played Olympia but have some positive things about.

Someone mentioned they have 7 years "to make it worthy" at Erin Hills....what is the USGA, a venture capital firm that invests (at least by giving the national Open and USGA name to a course) in golf courses getting better?  If that were the case they could pick in old corn field in Illinois and hire one of many great GCAs and come to the same conclusion.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2010, 10:12:14 AM »
There's a lot of empty land around Erin Hills for parking, there are also only two-lane roads to get there. Look for off-site parking (Miller Park?) and shuttles, like many majors these days.


Tim:

I think the logisitical concerns about EHills hosting a major are way over-rated; access might actually be a bit easier than it is at Whistling Straits (inaccessible from the East save by boat!). Most fans will come from three major metro areas -- Milwaukee, Madison, and Green Bay/Fox Valley -- and they will likely access the course from three different directions, using three different four-lane highways. EHills will have to close off for public use the county highway (O) north of the course (where EHills itself is accessed), but I can see three or four shuttle lots, all less than a mile from the course entrance, being set up to handle traffic and parking. I went to the PGA at the Straits, and the shuttle system there was quite good, I thought. There is very little around Erin Hills, which means less traffic overall in the area, and quite a bit of room for remote parking lots (bonus: there are two daily masses at nearby Holy Hill, plus daily confessional, for the golfer or fan so inclined...)

The US Open has a lot of national attendees, far more than the PGA. I still think you'll see a lot of corporate folks staying in Milwaukee, as with the PGA, and they'll not be parking in a remote grass lot, lest they get their Top-Siders dusty or muddy.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2010, 10:15:32 AM »
There is clearly more to the story about Olympia Fields.  Just because Furyk shot 8 under doesn't disqualify it...anyone remember Pebble 2000, they still got there?  There must be another issue.  I have never played Olympia but have some positive things about.

Someone mentioned they have 7 years "to make it worthy" at Erin Hills....what is the USGA, a venture capital firm that invests (at least by giving the national Open and USGA name to a course) in golf courses getting better?  If that were the case they could pick in old corn field in Illinois and hire one of many great GCAs and come to the same conclusion.

It all had to do with Cook County socking the USGA with a tab for security several hundred thousand dollars higher than originally planned (thanks to post 9/11 upgrades). The USGA said they should have gotten that for free, because of the $ the Open was bringing to the community. The County said they didn't supply cops for free. The USGA paid. But they loved the golf course and OFCC's facilities (the entire executive committee stayed in the clubhouse, and many other biggies took the train in from downtown to the first tee every day).
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Mike Hendren

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Re: 2017 US Open to Erin Hills
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2010, 10:26:49 AM »
While I've only played it once, I'm not so sure the land for Erin Hills was a strength.  I posted above that I found the course "clumsy."  In hindsight, I think that's primarily because the land is clumsy.  I don't recall a single stellar golf hole.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....