[Ally Mcintosh]

OK Guys... Don't take it too seriously...

Many courses have room for improvement, not just tinkering for tinkerings sake... or driven by other agendas (such as difficulty for tournaments)... And the question is hypothetical after all...

[Scott Warren]

No question: St Enodoc. All I'd really need is the biggest mower they have and about 12 hours to wield it!

[Anthony Gray]

  Cruden Bay.


   Anthony

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Conwy. I don't want a new course, it's hard enough as it is. However, I'd like a train load of dunes delivered so that we might undo the flattenings that took place during military occupation in two world wars.

As I understand it, there is no possibility of further development in the dunesland around Pyle and Kenfig for ecological reasons. That is probably true of Harlech, too.

How about Royal Troon? Would there be a way of reworking Old and Portland to give a championship course with more teeth to the opening half? (Not wishing to undo MacKenzie's contributions, whatever they may have been, of course.)

What could you do by amalgamating Royal Aberdeen and Murcar?

[Ally Mcintosh]

What could you do by amalgamating Royal Aberdeen and Murcar?

Very little considering the out and back nature of Balgownie (and to a lesser extent Murcar)... The only way this would work is by placing the clubhouse in the middle. Then, you would have to assume that the clubhouse half of the Murcar land is superior to the clubhouse half of the current Royal Aberdeen layout... and I'm not sure that keeping some of Murcar's best land would trump losing some of Royal Aberdeen's best land and holes...

[James Boon]

James,

I'm not for necessarily developing in to SSSI land (although each case to its own)... What I'm saying is that land owned by existing golf courses is never deemed to be SSSI or SACs (certainly in Ireland)... Completely new holes are almost always on the agenda should you be staying within the existing land...

And the spirit of this thread is to suggest changes within existing land...

Ally,

Sorry, I seem to have wandered a touch Off Topic with this, but just to wrap up, as far as I can tell, there are many golf courses on land that has been designated SSSI, so pretty much any work they do would need some form of approval. Here's an interesting little article...
http://www.egcoa.org/uploads/Wildlife%20on%20golf%20courses.pdf
However, when I first mentioned it I was only speculating on why more links courses hadn't had wholesale changes or anything beyond a slight tweaking?

So, to get back to the topic of which courses...

I have no love for Hoylake, so I'd quite happily give most of the early and laste holes a complete make-over!

On a more subtle front, I didn't play Golspie on my recent trip to the Highlands but I remember it as a little gem, but with a few holes around 13, 14, 15 that were unmemorable. If these could be given a makeover or replaced it could really improve things?

Cheers,

James

[Ally Mcintosh]

Good article James...

I figured there might be some crossover in England but I knew that in Ireland, no golf courses are deemed special areas of conservation... For clubs who want to develop their existing land, this leaves less of a problem with planning... Whether it is the right thing to do from an environmental point of view is a separate issue...

Do you know of any existing clubs in England that have been refused permitting for renovations / redesigns because the site is registered as an SSSI?... As the article states, the SSSI designation was often given because the area was a golf course...

At The World Forum, Paul O'Brien stood up and suggested that we lobby for The Old Course to be designated a World Heritage Site to stop any further development...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ive always fancid the job of upgrading B&B although I would not change lots as I think B&B is pretty perfect for many of its holes:
I would make a new green at 3 on the plateau behind (+40 yards) taking the green out of the blind hollow, 5 and 6 I would add say 25 yards per hole, 7 would be my most radical change, go back to the old tee (+50 yards) elevating the first part of the fairway up to 320 yards (1 metre elevation above the water table) then dogleg the hole into dunes on the right. At 8 I would elevate the fairway as 7 generating the material by excavating a pool. 10 I woud try and add 30 yards, 11 add another 40 yards with a tee to the right of the 10th green in the dunes. At 14 I would soften the approach to the green.

This would just take B&B over the 7000 yards. Sean does not approve of losing his beloved 7th hole and my 3rd green proposal, I know we have discussed it before, but I really think 3 and 7 could turn into a crackers.

[Sean_A]

Ive always fancid the job of upgrading B&B although I would not change lots as I think B&B is pretty perfect for many of its holes:
I would make a new green at 3 on the plateau behind (+40 yards) taking the green out of the blind hollow, 5 and 6 I would add say 25 yards per hole, 7 would be my most radical change, go back to the old tee (+50 yards) elevating the first part of the fairway up to 320 yards (1 metre elevation above the water table) then dogleg the hole into dunes on the right. At 8 I would elevate the fairway as 7 generating the material by excavating a pool. 10 I woud try and add 30 yards, 11 add another 40 yards with a tee to the right of the 10th green in the dunes. At 14 I would soften the approach to the green.

This would just take B&B over the 7000 yards. Sean does not approve of losing his beloved 7th hole and my 3rd green proposal, I know we have discussed it before, but I really think 3 and 7 could turn into a crackers.

Adrian

Unfortunately, I think your upgrade is a downgrade - tee hee.  Actually, I think its a mixed bag.  No way would I reco changing #7 to your spec.  #3 green is a holdover from the very early days (as are #s 15 & 18) so I am not in favour of another plateau green to replace it. 

#10 has had about 25-30 yards added - it will make no difference to the flat bellies.  In fact, it may make the hole easier as going left in the neck of the fairway past the bunker would often be taken out of the picture.  I could see slapping in a bunker on that left side to throttle guys back a bit.  But I think the hole would then play best from the front tee so guys can consider having a crack at the green. 

I am all in favour of jacking up 7 (so long as the spine and green are raised with it), 8 and 16 fairways with the 16th being the most critically necessary.  They just built a reservoir and I have no idea what happened to the sand.  I sugested capping #16 from about 120 out, but folks laughed and said this isn't America.  The fairway still gets wet and is weedy mess.  Chalk one up for America in this instance. 

The new course is ~6950.  One day folks will learn that adding yards on its own does not combat length very well.  I would much rather see added tees focus on width rather then length.  The new tee for #13 is a case in point.  Sure, the hole is 40 or 50 yards longer.  But this just takes the bridle path out of play (one eliminated option) and makes the hole play easier, not harder.  At least before the flat bellies had to shape the shot when going over the bridle path - now its up the gut.  I don't see why they couldn't call the old tee a par 4 from the championship tees and par 5 from the medal/daily tees.  Instead, we wasted money building an ugly tee which requires a long walk away from the ultimate target of the clubhouse.  I am not a fan of this sort of brainless yardage extension and often times - thats all it is.

Ciao

   

[Niall C]

  Cruden Bay.


   Anthony

Anthony

Interested to hear what changes would you make as I thought you considered the course damn near perfect.

Niall

[Anthony Gray]

  Cruden Bay.


   Anthony

Anthony

Interested to hear what changes would you make as I thought you considered the course damn near perfect.

Niall

  Niall

  9 on top of the hill needs to play along the cliff. Also tee boxes on 13 and 14 need to be on the edge of the ocean like on 15. The course would not play differently only enhance the beauty of the place.

  Anthony

[Carl Nichols]

Tralee Golf club, the Sandpines (missed opportunity) of Ireland.

How so?  This isn't a loaded question -- I've never been to Tralee, and don't know much about it.  What should be done?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - With respect, your loved opinion of 7 is a very minority one amongst most golfers...To most its the minger of the course, and very few are in favour of a blind green like the 3rd, equally back tees are for just a few so its a case of just bringing golf courses up to what is the right sort of length to stage championships. Back tees dont really worry the normal golfers.
This site likes width but championship golf calls for accuracy, so thats narrowness, fairways for championship golf are 20 metres wide sometimes, most people cant keep a 5 iron within that corridor, but the good news is that grass can be grown for championships and cut for normal play.

Opinions on whats better or worse will aways occur. What one person likes another will disike, arguing with an opinion is not easy because its subjective. I quite like the 3rd green where it is in that hollow but with the green visible with a skyline back ground and that hollow as fairway in front of the green I think it could be much better, but it needs a bit of tweaking as the vision and the way it would play is not perfect at the moment, but it could be.

I like the spine in 7 but thats all its got, that sort of thing can be recreated, but to take the green to the right into the lower part of the dunes could be much more interesting than the present backdrop (nothing).

[Niall C]

Anthony

i don't think anyone would argue that Cruden Bay would benefit from a change to no 9, any kind of change really as its pretty featureless.

The 14th does have a tee up near the beach but which I like but not for any views but for the fact that it means your hitting the fairway at an angle which is something I like as it suits all games, those who want to play safe to those that want to take on the tiger line.

As for the other holes, I don't think giving them a nicer view really addresses what I see as the weaknesses but then what I consider a weakness might be what you like about them.

Niall

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony

i don't think anyone would argue that Cruden Bay would benefit from a change to no 9, any kind of change really as its pretty featureless.

The 14th does have a tee up near the beach but which I like but not for any views but for the fact that it means your hitting the fairway at an angle which is something I like as it suits all games, those who want to play safe to those that want to take on the tiger line.

As for the other holes, I don't think giving them a nicer view really addresses what I see as the weaknesses but then what I consider a weakness might be what you like about them.

Niall

  Well said Niall.

[Garland Bayley]

Tralee Golf club, the Sandpines (missed opportunity) of Ireland.

How so?  This isn't a loaded question -- I've never been to Tralee, and don't know much about it.  What should be done?

Must fess up. Sorry I can't be much help as I haven't been there either. The "missed opportunity" is from either the CG or from Doak himself on this site. Relating it to Sandpines, which many on this site have called a "missed opportunity" is all I can take credit for.

[Sean_A]

Sean - With respect, your loved opinion of 7 is a very minority one amongst most golfers...To most its the minger of the course, and very few are in favour of a blind green like the 3rd, equally back tees are for just a few so its a case of just bringing golf courses up to what is the right sort of length to stage championships. Back tees dont really worry the normal golfers.
This site likes width but championship golf calls for accuracy, so thats narrowness, fairways for championship golf are 20 metres wide sometimes, most people cant keep a 5 iron within that corridor, but the good news is that grass can be grown for championships and cut for normal play.

Opinions on whats better or worse will aways occur. What one person likes another will disike, arguing with an opinion is not easy because its subjective. I quite like the 3rd green where it is in that hollow but with the green visible with a skyline back ground and that hollow as fairway in front of the green I think it could be much better, but it needs a bit of tweaking as the vision and the way it would play is not perfect at the moment, but it could be.

I like the spine in 7 but thats all its got, that sort of thing can be recreated, but to take the green to the right into the lower part of the dunes could be much more interesting than the present backdrop (nothing).

Adrian

The spine is all #7 needs.  Its a subtle hole which causes head scratching.  Another reason I wouldn't move that green is the far left tee for #8 would effectively be abandoned.  Not good - not good at all because width it what makes golf interesting and eliminating a tee which creates two completely different ways to play a hole for the sake of yardage on a previous which is fine the way it is - is bad business.  I don't mind the odd back tee for the one or two bigger events Burnham holds annually, but I wouldn't want the club to get wrapped into the idea of "championship golf" because imo championship golf is bad for golf design.  Furthermore, Burnham isn't a real champiionship design anyway so why go thru the motions?  The best ams tear the place apart unless the weather is up - in which case it wouldn't matter much at all if the course were 300 yards shorter.  Unfortunately, I think your way of thinking is what holds sway at Burnham at the moment even though the vast majority of members can't understand why or why they should pay for it.  I expect that in the near future more changes to come - likely additional bunkering to tighten the course up.  What a shame.

Ciao

[Ian Andrew]

Nefyn and District

[James Boon]

Good article James...

I figured there might be some crossover in England but I knew that in Ireland, no golf courses are deemed special areas of conservation... For clubs who want to develop their existing land, this leaves less of a problem with planning... Whether it is the right thing to do from an environmental point of view is a separate issue...

Do you know of any existing clubs in England that have been refused permitting for renovations / redesigns because the site is registered as an SSSI?... As the article states, the SSSI designation was often given because the area was a golf course...

At The World Forum, Paul O'Brien stood up and suggested that we lobby for The Old Course to be designated a World Heritage Site to stop any further development...

Ally,

I'm not aware of any courses being prevented from developing. In fact I know Burnham to be a SSSI and as Sean has mentioned we have recently had several new tees and bunkers added as well as a large reservoir. I think Natural England are a lot more open to these developments these days, but maybe they stood in the way of them in the past???

Sean and Adrian,

Thinking it over a bit more, the flatter holes still have the larger dunes as a backdrop, which is very pleasant, so no need to go running every hole through the dunes themselves. The one change I'd make at Burnham would be to cut the 7th fairway further to the left (not quite a makeover in the spirit of this thread, but an improvement none the less). This would hopefully make the central spine more of a key feature of the hole?

And Adrian, you should join us in September to see some of the changes that Sean mentions.

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

Good article James...

I figured there might be some crossover in England but I knew that in Ireland, no golf courses are deemed special areas of conservation... For clubs who want to develop their existing land, this leaves less of a problem with planning... Whether it is the right thing to do from an environmental point of view is a separate issue...

Do you know of any existing clubs in England that have been refused permitting for renovations / redesigns because the site is registered as an SSSI?... As the article states, the SSSI designation was often given because the area was a golf course...

At The World Forum, Paul O'Brien stood up and suggested that we lobby for The Old Course to be designated a World Heritage Site to stop any further development...

Ally,

I'm not aware of any courses being prevented from developing. In fact I know Burnham to be a SSSI and as Sean has mentioned we have recently had several new tees and bunkers added as well as a large reservoir. I think Natural England are a lot more open to these developments these days, but maybe they stood in the way of them in the past???

Sean and Adrian,

Thinking it over a bit more, the flatter holes still have the larger dunes as a backdrop, which is very pleasant, so no need to go running every hole through the dunes themselves. The one change I'd make at Burnham would be to cut the 7th fairway further to the left (not quite a makeover in the spirit of this thread, but an improvement none the less). This would hopefully make the central spine more of a key feature of the hole?

And Adrian, you should join us in September to see some of the changes that Sean mentions.

Cheers,

James

Boony

It would seem make over means some tweaking.  Since Burnham is the course I play most here is what I would like to see happen.

#2: create tee further left on top of dune

#3: Use lower left section of daily tee on #17 as championship tee

#4: build a large, blind bunker to the right of fairway; extend fairway further right at about 220 out up to where the ground rises suddenly around 260 out (I am sick of looking for balls over there - smae goes for next suggestion); widen fairway left for second shot - near the 100-75 yard area

#6: build new tee right of the right tee - sort of behind the fifth green

#7: create fairway between bunker and oob (as you suggest); fairway cut to the water on right then again about 50 yards short and up to the green (I want to know if the ball is in the hazard or not plus the rough saves balls in the winter); tear out shrubbery behind green; sand cap right side of fairway to water; eliminate rough patch in fairway

#8: fairway left of new bunkers; create a proper fairway right of the water; sand cap right side of fairway to the water and up to the bridge; eliminate rough patches in fairway by extending dune line from left with sand capped fairway

#10: bunker on left maybe 40 yards short of #11 tee; fairway cut much further left over the hill; move green just in front and right of the right tee for #11

#12: create tee for par 3 as originally intended (perhaps used mainly in nthe winter)

#13: abandon new tee in favour of old tee - maybe create another tee left

#14: smooth out hollows right of the green

#16: create one large fairway with #3; build new tee on end of dune where current tee exists - maybe 25 yards forward and further right (makes the green drivable for more moderate hitters, but one must go over all the trouble and the green isn't receptive from this angle); sand cap fairway from about 125 out from the green

#18: take out left greenside bunkers (let balls kick left into trouble)

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

I don't know if would be possible or not, but bringing back the original Princes would be my vote. It was such an important design historically.

[Carr Harris]

TOC...


A way too wonderful piece of property to have been trusted to to a first time architect with no proven track record (god).

I say get Tommy Fazio in there to punch that baby up

[Brad Wilbur]

Castle Course in St. Andrews:  take some of the overcontouring out of the greens so that they could stimp higher than what they do now.  Or at least loan golfers a heavy mallet putter for long putts.

[Jud_T]

Ballybunion Cashen-I'd like to make it over into a goat track/hiking trail. Oh, wait a minute......

[John Chilver-Stainer]

personally, I'm against tinkering with ancient links course - they should remain as an unapologetic archeological statement of their era. Once one starts tinkering with them it never ends and nearly always leads to the quirk being dumbed down.

The only excuse to alter an ancient links is to restore it back to it's original.

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