[Patrick_Mucci]

would it be safe to say that the course is underrated to vastly underrated ?

Fenway and Ridgewood come to mind.

Both are exceptional golf courses.

You'll get to see 18 of Ridgewood's 27 holes at the Barclays tournament.

Fenway is sensational and challenging.

Ridgewood is sensational and challenging.

Fenway is a few blocks from Winged Foot and Quaker Ridge.

Ridgewood isn't far away and even closer to the two Baltusrol courses.

Some feel that Ridgewood is superior to both Baltusrols.

If WF and Baltusrol didn't exist, would Fenway and Ridgewood jump more than just a place or two ?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat-

  I can't speak for Fenway, as I have not played any of the famous Westchester courses, but as for Ridgewood, yes.  Ridgewood is superb.  But maybe they don't want all the attention, which is their prerogative.

  And, we can go further and say that Baltusrol's shadow casts over many of the other area courses, specifically Plainfield (also have not played, but from photos and secondhand info can gather that it is excellent) and Essex County most significantly, and probably Montclair and Glen Ridge as well. 

  But again, maybe some of these clubs don't want the attention.

[John Moore II]

Well, obviously it depends on who you ask. Certainly you seem to believe that either of the two courses you mentioned are quite comparable to the well known neighbors. I think that this is indeed the case with many courses. They are simply overshadowed by the courses next to them.

Certainly this is not always the case though, given that many of the Long Island courses are right next door to each other, literally sharing boundaries in many cases, and those tend not to be underrated, at least it wouldn't seem so.

And it also works the other way, I think that many of the courses in the Pinehurst area are overrated because they fall in the shadow of #2 and gain "points" as such.

But to answer the original question, yes, if a course is in the shadow of another great course, if the first course is underrated at all, it will be greatly underrated.

[Keith OHalloran]

I tend to think that the Red Course at Bethpage does not get the attention it deserves based on its famoous neighbor,

[Jaeger Kovich]

Is there a reason you are only using examples by Tillinghast? All of those courses are still found the lists, so are they really in anyones shadow? I think a golf course like Century CC lies within the shadow of the WF's, QR's and WCC's .


good choice keith

[Jeff Evagues]

You can stand on the first tee at Sebonack and hit the NGLA clubhouse with a wedge.

[Richard Choi]

Pat, I have to agree with Doug. It is not Ridgewood that is getting overlooked, it is Plainfield that is getting overlooked. It is so much superior to Baltusrol that I have a hard time imagining anyone preferring Baltusrol over Plainfield. I just hope once WGC event is held at Plainfield, it gets the respect it so deserves.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Richard Choi,

Plainfield is a wonderful golf course, however, I wonder if the WGC you mention will be good for Plainfield in terms of perception.

By that I mean the following.

Baltusrol Lower had the luxury of a good amount of land, ergo, elasticity.
The same for the Upper which has been recently lengthened.

Plainfield hasn't had that luxury, hence, when the best golfers in the world play there, will par be demolished, and with it Plainfield's reputation, relative to Baltusrol's ?

Jaeger,

I used Ridgewood and Fenway as examples for the simple fact that I played them recently.

Doug,

If Ridgewood didn't want the attention, they wouldn't have hosted the Barclays and the Senior Open.

[Mike Policano]

Pat, using Golfweek's classic courses ratings, it would seem that Fenway and Ridgewood are somewhat underrated.

WF West  16
Somerset Hills 28
Plainfield 29 (not underrated)
WF East 33
Baltus Lower 36
Quaker Ridge 38
Baltus Upper 59

Fenway 61
Ridgewood 85

I am not objective in this discussion so I will leave to others.

Cheers 

[Niall Hay]

Prestwick and/or Western Gailes in relation to Royal Troon.

[Dan Herrmann]

Doug,
I was chatting with a couple of Ridgewood members during The Barclays, and they actually liked the attention.  They were justifiably proud of their course and wanted the golf world to know what greatness lurked in the shadows of the Garden State Plaza

[Jim Hoak]

I think that Spyglass is a very good-to-great course, but it is hurt being alongside Pebble Beach.  Spyglass would make a great PGA course, if the PGA and the USGA for the Open weren't so competitive.
But certainly having Pebble and Cypress very close together hasn't hurt the reputation of either.

[Jerry Kluger]

Patrick:

There is no question that some courses are underrated when they are near a highly rated course and there can be a number of reasons for that.  Your examples demonstrate that big name tournaments can raise ratings of courses - maybe not in a formal rating sense but at least as to public perceptions.  Perhaps the best example may be San Francisco Golf Club in the shadow of Olympic - I have not played either but Olympic has hosted major championships while I do not believe SFGC has.  Magazine ratings may have SFGC rated higher but I would suggest that the public's perception is that Olympic is the best in the Bay area.

In the Philly area Merion and Pine Valley are clearly recognized as the best but there are so many other great courses which are simply ignored because of these two giants.     

[Roger Wolfe]

Grandfather Mountain and Old Linville basically butt up against eachother in the NC mountains.  Both
are absolutely wonderful.

[Terry Lavin]

Flossmoor CC is a driver away from Olympia Fields North.  Olympia is a perennial Top 100 and has hosted numerous championships and Flossmoor hasn't hosted anything big since the 1920's when they had the PGA.  It's a terrific golf course that won the renovation of the year from Golf Magazine, but it does suffer to some extent because of its more famous neighbor.

[Niall Hay]

Patrick:

There is no question that some courses are underrated when they are near a highly rated course and there can be a number of reasons for that.  Your examples demonstrate that big name tournaments can raise ratings of courses - maybe not in a formal rating sense but at least as to public perceptions.  Perhaps the best example may be San Francisco Golf Club in the shadow of Olympic - I have not played either but Olympic has hosted major championships while I do not believe SFGC has.  Magazine ratings may have SFGC rated higher but I would suggest that the public's perception is that Olympic is the best in the Bay area.

In the Philly area Merion and Pine Valley are clearly recognized as the best but there are so many other great courses which are simply ignored because of these two giants.     

SFGC and OC are close, but Merion and Pine Valley are actually a good distance/time apart....

[Tim Martin]

It seems that once a course has hosted a major championship its neighbors take a back seat at least perception wise to the general golfing population. As great as NGLA is how many outside this forum or others like it would know enough about it to mention it in the same breath as Shinnecock? Although I have never played Baltusrol lower I have walked it at least 6 times compared to one walk at Ridgewood and I like Ridgewood(composite) better. The same could be said of WFW and QR. Didn`t Jack Nicklaus make a comment to the effect that Quaker was the best layout in the area?

[Gary Slatter]

Is this a challenge for Tom and Renaissance Club, being so close to Muirfield?    It affected my visits to RC and I'm sure it will be similar for others.  I can't express it properly, but maybe I expected a "new" Muirfield experience or something.

[Dave Falkner]

Our super was talking about this the other day, being on Long Island with all of the "buillies" in the nieghborhood

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Hillside and Royal Birkdale come to mind.
I am big lover of both of these courses, more so than most on this site , but I believe they fit Mr Mucci intent here.
Of course Spyglass and Pebble also spring to mind...would Spyglass be more highly regarded if it was not sandwiched inbetween Pebble and Cypress?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think it is Olympic in the shadow of SFGC as much as I hate to admit it. I think Bandon Trails and Dunes in shadow of Pac Dunes. Old Mac may change these dynamics. Monterey Pen looking at Cypress.

[Bill Brightly]

No doubt Plainfield is a great course, but 18 is such an odd closing hole (Short, sharp dogleg.)  I wonder if they will swap the 9's for the Barclays and finish on Hole 9? Would seem to me that there is far more room for grandstands there.

[Bill_McBride]

Is this a challenge for Tom and Renaissance Club, being so close to Muirfield?    It affected my visits to RC and I'm sure it will be similar for others.  I can't express it properly, but maybe I expected a "new" Muirfield experience or something.

It's even more difficult when when you consider that Renaissance at Archerfield is not only next door to majestic Muirfield but also sandwiched between Muirfield and that king of quirk, North Berwick!

[Paul Carey]

+1 to Western Gailes.  i would play it 8/10 to Troon.

Prestwick and/or Western Gailes in relation to Royal Troon.

[Gary Slatter]

+1 to Western Gailes.  i would play it 8/10 to Troon.

Prestwick and/or Western Gailes in relation to Royal Troon.

me too, maybe 4 WG, 5 Prestwick and 1 Troon for me (returning to Prestwick for lunch all 10 rounds - lunch upstairs is casual and good)

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