Miller's choices

[Bob_Huntley]

Did anyone catch Johnny Miller on the Golf Channel last evening? A thoroughly entertaining interview with an articulate champion at his best.

This for my good friend Rich Goodale. His two to play as his last on earth, east coast, Shinnecock, left coast, Pebble Beach. His description of Shinnecock was as we have always thought, as good a test as any course in the world.

[TEPaul]

I've only played Shinnecock less than a half dozen times and when I did I really didn't look that closely at its architecture. I did look extremely closely at it's architecture while walking it with some friends while they played about a year ago.

Of course it's unrelentingly long sometimes but not really for a tour pro. You can't be wild obviously but is most of what it's about the greens?

They really don't even look that hard or complex either except for some like #7, #10, #11 etc, but they seem to have a way of sloughing shots off without really appearing to be the type to do that! But the ever present and massive chipping areas look to have complex recoverability from them--like so many options and types of shots to use to recover!

Is that why Pavin won there? He was undeniably straight and accurate although unusually short but at that time he was an amazing short game artist and putter.

Was his ability to recover over and over again, particularly with the complexity of recovering around it's greens, what Shinnecock is all about?

Frankly, if that's what Shinnecock is all about, even in that way, Oakmont looks harder and like more of a test to me!

[TEPaul]

Oh, I forgot, if Oakmont is in fact harder or a stiffer test, I guess I can understand why JohnnyM might not have said so or thought so! What a round that was!

[Richard_Goodale]

Good Friend Bob (I shall wear those bits and bytes with humble honour for the rest of my life!).

To me Johnny M is easily in the top ten of golf talents that ever existed.  Seve or Watson would have had to give him 1-2 strokes a side in his far too brief prime.

I wonder, why does he add Pebble, rather than Cypress Point (each of which he has played many, many times over his life) to Shinnecock?  Particulary when most on this site swoon over the latter and carp at the former.

Perhaps it is because Pebble is to CP as Shinnecock to NGLA?  Perhaps not as much fun, or as much panache, or as much hoity-toity snobbery, or as much architectural pedigree, but very much more a complete test of golf, for the serious golfer?

[RJ_Daley]

Wouldn't you just love to hear what Miller was going to say when he claims he grabs his lips to prevent things from coming out?  

He ripped that par 3 17th as unfair at Bayhill, and said sorry, Arnie was sitting near by the broadcast booth, but the truth is that the design is bad.  Of  course JM probably doesn't use many expletives and no need to move his broadcast to cable, but maybe it would make watching the telecasts better if they did let him say what he wants and risk being called a moron by the Zinger... :-/

[Richard_Goodale]

shivas

Of course I meant "get"!  Too many senior moments these days....  However, it's off the sticks, as they say in Fife, at Barona.  So as your pal Inquisitive Jameson Johnson IV, aka Hootie, aka Curious JJ is wont to say, Please Transport your "A" Game to the First Tee you Reproductively Female Canine "Team Dud" member!......

All the best

Rich

[TEPaul]

You might have a point there, Rich, but I don't think so! The reason Miller probably gives the nod to Pebble over Cypress is because, like Venturi, Pebble was so central to his golf upbringing and was very much the centerpiece of his best memories and salad days!

Both of them played them both so many times but far, far more Pebble in the tournaments and the significant ones--and particularly Miller's record at Pebble is pretty precious! And Pebble was always where they collected the silver! Golfers like Miller and Venturi have a way of apotheosizing that tournament site and course!

(That word is gonna cost you $1.89, by the way)!

[Ed_Baker]

Tom,

synonomous with deification, that's deification not...well you know.

Besides it has already happened to you, are you not a doyen?

[Richard_Goodale]

....or, Tom , it could mean that Miller and Venturi et. al. are not only much better golfers than you and I but also much better observers of what great golf really is.

[TEPaul]

Ed:

You know what a "doyen" sounds like to me? A little old chinese grande dame who's about two feet high. But if they deify them in Shrimp Lo Mein City it's OK with me.

Rich:

As far as Venturi and Miller being better golfers then we are and better observers of great golf, that is undeniably so, in my opinion!

But as far as being better observers of golf architecture, well, I've always had an open mind...anything's possible!

[George Pazin]

Rich -

Maybe if you're a great golfer you come to prefer hard over fun. Don't think I'll ever have to worry about that...

[Richard_Goodale]

Geroge

I am not a great golfer by any means, but I am good enough to be able to birdie any hole at Carnoustie and stupid (ambitious?) enough to try.

TomP

I cant talk for Venturi, since he can hardly talk for himself, but I would rather discuss GCA with Johnny Miller than with 99% of the people on this DG, if I had the chance.  Nothing personal guys and gals!  I think he has forgotten more about the subtleties of playing golf than any of us will ever have the chance to even try to begin to remember.....

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

TEPaul,

Going along with your observations about the short game and how Pavin won at Shinnecock, it might interest you to know he finished towards the middle of the pack in terms of greens in regulation at the '95 Open.  Offhand, I think he hit somewhere below 40 for the 4 days. He finished tied for 1st in fewest number of putts for the week, so that would support a lot of up and downs. He must have taken full advantage of the chipping areas around 9 of Shinnecock's greens.

 Also, Els in his '94 win at Oakmont was also #1 in greens in regulation with 50+. I'm thinking it was 55 or 56 (could be high) which, if right, is a very impressive number at any Open.

[redanman]

You can't be wild obviously but is most of what it's about the greens?

They really don't even look that hard or complex either except for some like #7, #10, #11 etc, but they seem to have a way of sloughing shots off without really appearing to be the type to do that!

Is there a course the where middle of the green 18 times (Ok, 17,  not on Raynor's #7) is better than at Shinnecock?

Except for Rayjnor's really really severe redan, those greens are false fronted, backed and sided with relatively little contour and small, effectively very small.

With the wind that blows there, brilliant decision by Flynn to build those elegantly simple putting surfaces.  Very Ross-like, that elegant simplicity.  

Shinnecock's greatness, proof that even a squirrel like Miller (Once called the biggest moron (Later corrected to Mormon   ) in the booth by A-Zinger) can get one right!  

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

One other thought about Shinnecock, that to me proves how truly great that course is. No one type of player dominates at Shinnecock. In both the '86 and '95 Opens held there, you had short and long hitters, faders and hookers, low ball and high ball golfers, etc, in contention at the end.

[Jim_Kennedy]

gary,
Corey Pavins' Final Round 68 at the 1995 U.S. Open

Hole #1, 391 yards, par 4
Driver and wedge to 25 feet, 2 putts for par
Hole #2, 221 yards, par 3
2 iron to fringe, chip hit the pin, 1 foot putt for par
Hole #3, 456 yards, par 4
Driver to left tall grass, good lie, 5 iron to fringe, chip to 8 feet and two putts for bogey
Hole #4, 409 yards, par 4
Driver and 5 iron to 40 feet, two putts for par
Hole #5, 529 yards, par 5
Driver to first cut of rough, 2 iron to left bunker, sand wedge to 15 feet and two putts for par
Hole #6, 456 yards, par 4
Driver and 4-iron just short of the green, chip to 2 feet and 1 putt for par
Hole #7, 184 yards, par 3
4 iron just short of the green, chip to five feet and one putt for par
Hole #8, 361 Yards, par 4
Driver and 8 iron to 20 feet, two putts for par
Hole #9, 411 yards, par 4
Driver and 6 iron to 6 feet, one putt for birdie
Front 9 : Even Par 35

Hole #10, 412 yards, par 4
3 Wood and 6 iron over the green, chip to 5 feet and one putt for par
Hole #11, 158 yards, par 3
8 iron to 18 feet, two putts for par
Hole #12, 469 yards, par 4
Driver and 8 iron to 12 feet, one putt for birdie
Hole #13, 372 yards, par 4
Driver and 7 iron just short of the green, chip to two feet and one putt for par
Hole #14, 447 yards, par 4
3 Wood and 9 iron just over the green, putted from the fringe to two feet, tapped it in for par
Hole #15, 400 yards, par 4
Driver and wedge to 12 feet, one putt for birdie
Hole #16, 542 yards, par 5
Driver, 3 Wood, and 8 iron to 10 feet, two putts for par
Hole #17, 169 yards, par 3
6 iron to the back fringe, putted from the fringe to 5 feet, one putt for par
Hole #18, 426 yards, par 4
Driver and 4 wood to 5 feet, two putts for par
Back 9 : 2-Under 33


Final Round Statistics, 1995 U.S. Open, Shinnecock Hills Golf Course. These show a pretty tough course. Could it have been an "ultimate" test?

                                                                                     
            Average   Eagles   Birdies   Pars  Bogeys  Bge   other
Round 1  73.490     3        314      1738     659    81       13
Round 2  73.888     4         282    1705      684     88        9
Round 3  74.225     4         130     776      366     33        5
Round 4  72.061     2         172     839      278     20        3

Total      73.511    13         898    5058     1987    222       30

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Thanks for that breakdown of Pavin's final round, Jim. I went through it and counted 10 greens in regulation that final day. I remember Norman playing a very strong tee to green game that final day, especially on the front 9, but he just couldn't make a putt. He started to fade on the back 9 (bogies at 12, 13, and 17, I believe) and Pavin motored right on past him.

[JohnV]

Rich,

Too bad Johnny forgot all that stuff before he started designing golf courses.  I've only played on, but it may have been the most appropriately named course in history, The Badlands.

... I would rather discuss GCA with Johnny Miller than with 99% of the people on this DG, if I had the chance.  Nothing personal guys and gals!  I think he has forgotten more about the subtleties of playing golf than any of us will ever have the chance to even try to begin to remember.....

[Matt_Ward]

I won't repeat everything else that's been said about Shinnecock Hills -- but in my mind it's the premier course to play in American golf. It offers everything and as Gary indicated can accomodate all styles of play.

What's interesting to note is that no matter how strong you start -- witness Greg Norman's superlative play for the first 36 holes in '95 -- Norman hit 25 of 36 holes in the regulation stroke. Over the final 36 holes the Great White Shark managed just 14 greens and ONLY one birdie -- the 15th on the final round.

Pavin's success has to be credited to his grit, but let's not forget that the course dried out from early Wednesday through to the conclusion of Sunday. Under wet conditions I doubt he could have gotten within scoring distance for consistent iron play to have much hope. As the course dried out it neutralized power and made you play the complete game with the ground game included into the equation.

I only wish our Open could be played at Shinnecock every five-six years.

One last point JohnV: Agree with you take on the Badlands but if time permits try The GC at Thanksgiving Point in Lehi. UT / just outside Salt Lake City. Wonderful public layout by Miller.

[TEPaul]

redanman:

Thanks for the info, sort of what I suspected.

Jim Kennedy:

Impressive! Where did you get Pavin info that comprehenive?

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEPaul,
Here is the site. http://services.golfweb.com/tour/pga/gwtpu3pavin.htmWhen looking at some of the driver/iron combinations he hit, it is evident that wind surely made it a fun day!

There are also great photos of every hole at Shinnecock at this site.

http://services.golfweb.com/tour/shinn/shinn_all.htm

[Dan King]

Rich Goodale writes:
but I would rather discuss GCA with Johnny Miller than with 99% of the people on this DG, if I had the chance.  Nothing personal guys and gals!  I think he has forgotten more about the subtleties of playing golf than any of us will ever have the chance to even try to begin to remember.....

If he knows about subtleties he is keeping them a secret from the people who are designing courses and letting him slap his name on to. I've played a couple of Miller-signature design courses, and the only thing they have in common is lack of interest. If you are impressed with Miller, head to Gilroy and play Eagle-whatever. I'm guessing your impression of him will change.

A good player does not mean someone that knows or even gives a hoot about architecture. I had to talk to these PGA types for a few years, and the majority of them couldn't care less about the course they were playing. They hit the ball where accepted wisdom or their caddy told them to hit the ball. Strategy isn't high on their list of concerns.

jim_kennedy writes:
Here is the site. http://services.golfweb.com/tour/pga/gwtpu3pavin.htm

Don't let the PGA Tour know you can get there. They thought they turned off the old GolfWeb many years ago. Little do they know you can still get to the old content on that server.

"It's like replacing Bo Derek with Roseanne Barr."
 --Johnny Miller (on Poppy Hills replacing Cypress Point as part of the home for the AT&T Pro-Am)

[TEPaul]

Rich Goodale does write that he would rather discuss GCA (I suppose he really does mean golf architecture, not just golf) with Johnny Miller than with 99%...because Johnny has forgotten more about the subtelties of golf than the rest of us could....

Johnny is a helluva golfer and a good observer and commentator of golf and golf tournaments but does Rich really think that automatically translates to golf architecture and the same understanding of it?

Does that pertain to just Johnny in Rich's opinion or does he think that's true of people who know how to play golf well and observe the subtelties of those who play well?

Wow, if that's true, I think I'm beginning to really understand why Rich tends to self-admittedly hold golf architecture in rather low esteem, certainly compared to some of the rest of the "guys" on here.

Rich has said mostly he looks at golf architecture as an opportunity to play golf and that's what truly interests him--not much more I assume. Nothing wrong with that, Johnny probably sees it that way too and would probably agree with Rich's statement yesterday that the best a great golf course can be is just a great walk in the park.

There are probably plenty on here who love a great walk in the park as much as Rich, they might just get a bit more interested in the park than Rich seems to be.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Isn't Johnny Miller's name associated with Maderas?  Aren't he and Robert M. Graves credited with the course?  Does anyone know his involvement?  

I have only played the Badlands course and it was just bad.

[THuckaby2]

Craig:  Neal M. will tell you all you want to know about Miller's involvement with Maderas when you play the course and meet him.

I don't want to speak out of turn - no need to - you have the most positive, best possible source there in Neal.

It is indeed credited to Miller and Graves.

TH