[Doug Braunsdorf]

Wow!  Thanks for sharing, Joe.  I've driven by LCC many times (ex-gf's family were longtime members in the 80s and 90s) but not played it.  I see risk/reward all over these holes.  There doesn't appear to be a let up in the entire nine!  Just a few questions:

1.  What's the elevation change from 1 tee to 1 green?  It looks slightly downhill, but something tells me it's greater than that.
2.  On #4, is it advantageous to hit a driver all the way down to the end of the fairway?  
3.  I haven't seen a green complex like 5 on the few Flynns I have played.  Although the hole appears shorter, is it because the drive is uphill, and the player may come in with a longer club?

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike:  I would be curious to hear more about the creek manifesto. As I understand it from your post on the Manufacturers thread it seems inconsistent with 4, 5 and 12 at Lancaster though I also may have misunderstood.

Jim: 6 definitely requires more care than it did when the tree was there.  For those who have never seen it, the sycamore was massive and forced the golfer to aim for the right half of the green. If anything, it served as an alignment aid.  A lot more shots are finding their way into the creek now that the tree is gone and people are trying to get greedy.  When the green is firm  lots of rain here in the last week) a ball with a lot of right to left spin can find its way into the creek if it his the left third of the green at low trajectory.

Doug:  there is plenty of room to bomb it down the fairway on 4 but the green is much longer than it is wide so you are better approaching it from short left rather than long left.  Also, there is a spine that runs down the center and an approach from the angle you are contemplating would actually run away and could run off the green. 

The elevation change on 1 is much more than it appears plus the prevailing wind is at your back so if you carry the ball 250 in the air you are likely to get a drive that covers 280 yards.  By contrast the slope on 9 (which plays back up the same slope) shaves a lot off a well struck tee shot plus its into the prevailing wind.  I agree with Kevin that 9 is the most featureless hole but the green does make up for a lot.

5 is a short hole but unless you place your tee shot precisely, you will not have a level lie (ball will be above your feet and possibly downhill if you carry your tee shot long).  to get close to a back right hole location you have to play the ball out by the water and hook it in to an area of the green that runs away. Standard miss is a pull left into the chipping area.  It is probably the most visually active green on the course but not the most difficult.

The AB Thorn Pro Am is being played at LCC on Friday so for anyone who is close and has time to kill, its a good chance to see the course.

[JNagle]

Rory,

"May the wind be at your back" tommorrow, if you are playing.  Should you be at the Club for the AB, look up a friend/client of ours Dave Visocan.  Dave is Supt. at Chester Valley and will be playing in the AB Thorn.  Great guy, excited to be playing at LCC and one heck of a golfer.  Best of luck.

Regards,

Jim

[TEPaul]

Rory:

I've played Lancaster, generally in state amateurs or maybe the Thorne enough to know the course pretty well and I guess I've officiated on it about as much.

On #4 I remember most of us hitting a long iron down there but in the last State Open I officiated there (amateur Van Sickle won it) I spent a lot of time on #4 and #5 and I was surprised to see more than one player actually try to drive the green on #4. I don't think it worked out very well for any of them but I do remember one guy drove it onto the green but he was in the wrong place for that day's pin and 3 putted which as I recall he sort of realized was inevitable before he hit his first putt.

[Rory Connaughton]

Tom:

  I remember speaking with you the evening when Stu Ingraham, Krebs and Van Sickle were preparing for the final round (each in their own way).  In the right wind, 4 can be driven from the members tee by the very long (our green chair is the only person to ever ace the hole) but you are right, there is no future in the attempt most of the time especially if the hole is located on the left side of the spine.  Above the hole in that situation is three putt for sure.

 Van Sickle was incredible during that event because he basically bashed the ball all over the place and still won. In fact, if he hadn't tried to drive it over 17 tee and lost his ball when he was playing 13 he would have won it going away. Super nice kid. Was disappointed he didn't make the Walker Cup last year but I think his future is bright.

 Jim, they don't let hacks like me play in the Thorn!  I will look for Dave.  Its been wet out here so I suspect the short hitters will suffer and the long hitters will feast.

[mike_malone]

 Rory,

   I moved all of my golf research stuff and seem to have misplaced my "Masters of the Links" book which contains the 3 Flynn articles written for the USGA Bulletin. In one of those is his line about creeks. Maybe someone could find it.

[Joe Bausch]

The back nine at Lancaster begins with two very difficult par 4's.

#10.  slight dogleg right par 4 (481 yards).

[Joe Bausch]

#11.  a long par 4 that climbs at the end (478 yards).

[Joe Bausch]

#12.  Slightly downhill par 3 (181 yards).

[Joe Bausch]

#13.  Late dogleg left par 5 (517 yards).

[JNagle]

You know, lost amongst all of these conversations is the fact that Todd Bidlespacher and his crew have LCC looking pretty spectacular.

[Joe Bausch]

#14.  uphill and dogleg right par 4 (404 yards).

[Joe Bausch]

#15.  Dogleg right par 4 (442 yards).

[Joe Bausch]

#16.  Dogleg left par 4 (357 yards).

[Joe Bausch]

#17.  A 182 yard par 3.

[Joe Bausch]

#18.  Talk about a tough finishing hole, an uphill par 4 (470 yards).

[Rory Connaughton]

Jim:

   You are right, Todd deserves a lot of credit. Todd has done an incredible job since arriving at LCC from Kirtland.  He gets it and when the weather cooperates he keeps the course firm and fast.  I won't get into the details but as you know, turf conditions were less than ideal prior to his arrival and he has completely turned things around.  Of course you and Ron have had a huge impact at LCC as well and deserve an awful lot of credit.  

[Jeff Martz]

Lancaster CC was wonderful!  The course was in great condition, thanks to Todd and his crew.  The greens do not look particularly difficult from afar, but once you get there, many of them are quite devilish. (#8 and 17 particularly, I made a mess of both.)  My Top 25 Course list certainly needs to be rearranged after having had the chance to play a round at LCC!

[Joe Bausch]

The greens do not look particularly difficult from afar, but once you get there, many of them are quite devilish. (#8 and 17 particularly, I made a mess of both.)

Jeff's post reminds of a point I forgot to make about the 17th green.  These pics are just too small to adequately show the greens contours, but this day the pin on the 17th wasn't quite dead center, but close (maybe a pace or two back from the middle).  I really like it when a dead or nearly dead-center pin position on a green is the most challenging hole location for putting.  That spot at 17 at LCC is just a devil to putt at from just about all angles!

[Mike Cirba]

Has anyone ever come up with attribution for the original nine holes at LCC?

So the issues doesn't get confused, the club moved from another site to this  one around 1913 I believe.   

AWESOME course, by the way, with a superb job done by Ron and Jim to bring it to it's present state.

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike:

  The original LCC course is actually located across the street from Lancaster Catholic High School (the clubhouse is still there) and was laid out by John Reid in 1900. I believe that Jim Finegan attributes the original 9 at the current location (1913) to Reid as well though I have never confirmed that.

[D_Malley]

does anyone else see any similarities between lancaster #16 and rolling green # 18

They almost look identical in pictures.

[Dan Herrmann]

LCC is probably one of our nation's finest courses that nobody talks about.  It's a truly fantastic golf course with tremendous shot values throughout. 

I know it's Flynn, but there were some shots out there that reminded me of one of my favorite Ross courses, Monroe in Rochester NY (and I mean this as a compliment to both courses).

[Joe Bausch]

does anyone else see any similarities between lancaster #16 and rolling green # 18

They almost look identical in pictures.

I'm assuming you meant to type lancaster #15 Dan?  While on the tee of the 15th I said to Rory "this sure looks like the 18th at another Flynn course in the area!"

[TEPaul]

I've never thought of that before but there sure is real similarity in look with Lancaster's #15 and Rolling Green's #18 even if the latter is somewhat longer. From the back tees it is nowhere near as easy to hit a drive over the bunkered right corner on RG's #18 as it is on Lancaster's #15.

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