TD - Renaissance Design has a new addition to the Web Site, their best holes...

[Carl Rogers]

How many of you have looked at this feature?

How many of you are surprised at which holes are included or which were left out?

For those of you that have played all the courses, are any of you surprised?

[Joe Bausch]

Carl, thanks for the heads up.

I've played very few TD courses, but I must say that I'm thrilled he included the 12th at Quail Crossing, a very under appreciated public course in southern Indiana (not far from my high school).  The web page did not seem to include a photo of the green, so I'm linking to one from my web page:

[Jud_T]

Key quote: " For me, the key to an opening hole is a bit of forgiveness -- I seldom hit balls on the range before playing, so I don’t want to build a hole that’s too exacting right out of the box".   Reading between the lines...bet early and often, don't wait for the aloha press on 17...

[Don_Mahaffey]

I know it may be close to NLE, but no holes from Apache?
4, 6, 13, 16?

I still think AS may be one of the top 3 (in US)  they've ever built.

[Tom_Doak]

Carl:

I didn't mean to imply that the holes listed were all of our best holes ... I wanted to touch on a variety of courses and different types of holes.

I told someone today that I would happily take a hole like #6, 7, 8, or 9 at Pacific Dunes for any course I ever built.  Four par-4's in a row and yet they are all so different, and none of them really like any other hole we've built.

Mostly, I just wanted to talk about GOLF HOLES.  So many architects now talk about their courses without ever mentioning any hole in particular.  If you haven't got great holes, you haven't got a great course.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom,

I was intrigued by some of you thoughts about what to put in and what to leave out ... In your case a very daunting job.

I was very surprised (back in the winter some time, I think when the web site in a another format), you started and then stopped your best of holes, that no. 4 at Riverfront was included.

I now know how to make a real contribution to the site by posting some pics of no. 4 and adding some personal commentary about the hole.

[Garland Bayley]

I continue to be pleased by his choice of Black Forest #10 as one of his greatest. A hole which has its strategic options defined by trees. I'm not sure my buddy Melvyn would agree, but I think it works very well.

Many say you shouldn't base a hole on trees, because the trees may die. They conveniently forget how easy it is for a green committee to wipe a bunker from the face of a golf course.

[Daryl David]

Carl:

I didn't mean to imply that the holes listed were all of our best holes ... I wanted to touch on a variety of courses and different types of holes.

I told someone today that I would happily take a hole like #6, 7, 8, or 9 at Pacific Dunes for any course I ever built.  Four par-4's in a row and yet they are all so different, and none of them really like any other hole we've built.

Mostly, I just wanted to talk about GOLF HOLES.  So many architects now talk about their courses without ever mentioning any hole in particular.  If you haven't got great holes, you haven't got a great course.

Tom,

Glad to hear it is not a "best holes" designed list.  I would imagine that would be an entirely different type of list and one that is not worth the agony to produce.  I love the talk about each hole.  For me it's a great way to learn about the design process and compare the notes to thoughts I have had about the holes I have played.  Great variety in the list, although I had hoped to hear about #17 at Ballyneal.  That is one great long par 4.

[Mike Hendren]

Joe,

Quail Crossing is unique in that Tom actually built several of the greens himself.  If I recall correctly the 12th was one of them.  Perhaps he'll chime in.

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

That's not unique, exactly.  I built (shaped) all 18 greens at High Pointe, nearly all at The Legends (Heathland), and most of them at Black Forest [I think Gil Hanse built three or four there].  Then Gil built most of the greens at Stonewall, and I only built three or four.

Most of my courses have one or two greens where I got on the dozer, though it is not very many nowadays, because I've got a bunch of guys on payroll who are way more "in practice" on the equipment than I am.

I didn't shape any of the greens at Old Macdonald.  At Pacific Dunes, I did a lot of the shaping on #9 (upper and lower greens), and on #13 and 14 ... the latter two when Jim Urbina hurt his back and we were undermanned for a while.

I did shape the 12th at Quail Crossing, also.  The ridge from which the green is built was actually a leftover deposit of some coal tailings or something; it was black and sooty and neither Bruce nor Jim really wanted to dig into it.  So I did!

[jonathan_becker]

I do like that they picked #2 at SE.  RGD's explanation of the ball hanging against the mountain backdrop is what I remember most about that hole as well (or maybe that I made an 80 footer for 3  ).  That's probably why I love the driving range, too.  It's imtimate, the turf is flawless, and every ball you hit hangs up against the mountains.  I've never seen anything else quite like it.

[JESII]

From the site:

12th Hole - Quail Crossing - 410 yards, par 4   

   It doesn’t take a beautiful green site to make a great hole, just an interesting bit of contour.  This green sits atop an old loading station for a coal mine railway … the upper right of the green was raised to load the cars, while the lower left of the green (guarded by a fronting bunker) is set at the original grade, leaving the chance to play your approach off the bank in the green instead of carrying the bunker directly.

Pictures make it difficult to make sense of...what bank would you consider using to avoid the bunker in Joe's picture?

[Tom_Doak]

From the site:

12th Hole - Quail Crossing - 410 yards, par 4   

   It doesn’t take a beautiful green site to make a great hole, just an interesting bit of contour.  This green sits atop an old loading station for a coal mine railway … the upper right of the green was raised to load the cars, while the lower left of the green (guarded by a fronting bunker) is set at the original grade, leaving the chance to play your approach off the bank in the green instead of carrying the bunker directly.

Pictures make it difficult to make sense of...what bank would you consider using to avoid the bunker in Joe's picture?

Jim:

There is a diagonal tier in the green, separating the high right side from lower left.  It's about two feet of elevation change, as best I can remember.  You can sort of see it in the picture, just to the right of the bunker from where this photo was taken ... so you have to drive it to the right half of the fairway in order to use it.

[JESII]

Makes sense...is 410 from the tips or regular men's tees? Joe?

[Tom_Doak]

I think 410 was from the tips.  As it was, the back tee was just behind a power line corridor, and if we'd put the tee any further back you would hit the wires with your tee shot.

Funny, that description made me think that the 13th at Old Macdonald is a similar hole (left to right tiers in the green behind bunkers at right front).  Maybe we should have called it a Leven.

[Joe Bausch]

From the site:

12th Hole - Quail Crossing - 410 yards, par 4  

   It doesn’t take a beautiful green site to make a great hole, just an interesting bit of contour.  This green sits atop an old loading station for a coal mine railway … the upper right of the green was raised to load the cars, while the lower left of the green (guarded by a fronting bunker) is set at the original grade, leaving the chance to play your approach off the bank in the green instead of carrying the bunker directly.

Pictures make it difficult to make sense of...what bank would you consider using to avoid the bunker in Joe's picture?

Jim:

There is a diagonal tier in the green, separating the high right side from lower left.  It's about two feet of elevation change, as best I can remember.  You can sort of see it in the picture, just to the right of the bunker from where this photo was taken ... so you have to drive it to the right half of the fairway in order to use it.

Here is a better view of the 12th green at Quail Crossing:

[Joe Bausch]

Makes sense...is 410 from the tips or regular men's tees? Joe?

I'm not sure it quite plays this long, but close.  I wrote in my photo album that it played 392 yards, and I think I was playing the back tees that day.  Perhaps they've extended the tee since.