The CB Mac Trail

[Jim Colton]

In honor of Old Mac Day (a national holiday around these parts.  I know I'm having a hard time getting any actual work done), check out this incredible series that's starting up over on Tom Dunne's Out-and-Back.  John Dunn (the guy in those Old Mac preview videos) played nine courses in 17 days, starting with CB's inspiration at St. Andrews then playing Mid-Ocean, the National, Yale, Piping Rock, Creek Club, Sleepy Hollow, The Greenbrier, St Louis and Chicago Golf.  I'm officially jealous, but looking forward to reading each installment.

First Stop: The Old Course at St. Andrews
http://out-and-back.net/?p=2041

[Tom Dunne]

I promise I won't bump this thread to the top on a regular basis, but I feel strongly enough about my friend John Dunn's writing on the Mid Ocean Club to do it this time.

John took up the game at Mid Ocean and this week's chapter is an account of seeing this brilliant golf course for the very first time--through the eyes of a young boy. It's not an architecture-centric story, but just (in my humble opinion) a really enjoyable piece of writing, full stop. 

http://out-and-back.net/?p=2079

Thanks,

td

[BCyrgalis]

I played Mid Ocean when I was younger -- about 15 or 16 -- and I had the same perspective as a young John Dunn.  I had only been playing the game for about a year, and I was focused on hitting the ball and enjoying the views, rather than any placement of bunkers, or the use of the rolling terrain and the genius of course design that still sits there.  From all I've learned about Macdonald in the interim, I can't wait to get back -- and this fine piece by John only increases that desire tenfold.  I can't wait for his next installment.

[John Moore II]

Whatever happened to this series? It seems to have faded away after the first three installments.

[John Dunn]

Hey Guys,

first post on here. Just wanted to let you all know that the fourth chap is finally up. It's on Sleepy Hollow. www.out-and-back.net. I'm caddying for the summer at Bandon Dunes Golf Resort - been around Old Macdonald caddying or playing probably about 20 times now. Awesome course. I like it more and more each time around. I'm going to write about that one in the final chap when I wrap up the season this fall. It will include a season worth of impressions: mine and the golfers I've caddied for. I took my time with the Sleepy chapter for a couple of reasons: a) I'm looping my butt off and come home and pass out in a puddle of drool every night : ) b) I took my time with this chapter. I wanted to get the history exactly right - no easy task. That place has been through a lot. I couldn't have done it without George Bahto. Some pretty cool old, hard to find pics in the post. Check it out. And thanks for the interest. - John

[John Moore II]

John Dunn: Welcome. You played 9 Macdonald courses in 17 days and you are caddying at Bandon.      I hate you.

[John Dunn]

 

[John Moore II]

John-
I notice that you say in your blog that you had played 6 of 9 'original' CBM designs prior to undertaking this trip. What are the nine originals? Because worldgolf.com lists 11 original designs by CBM:
Blind Brook Club - Private in Purchase
**Chicago Golf Club - Private in Wheaton
**Course at Yale, The - Private in New Haven
**Creek Club, The - Private in Locust Valley
Downers Grove Park District Golf Course - Public in Downers Grove
**Eighteen Hole at Sleepy Hollow Country Club - Private in Scarborough
**National Golf Links of America - Private in Southampton
Nine Hole at Sleepy Hollow Country Club - Private in Scarborough
**Old White at Greenbrier, The - Resort in White Sulphur Springs
**Piping Rock Club - Private in Locust Valley
**Saint Louis Country Club - Private in Saint Louis

The ones with the stars are the ones you played on this trip. What is the deal with the other two? Are they not CBM anymore due to 'renovations' or did you not stop because they are 9 hole courses?

[John Dunn]

I went by Bahto's list. I'll ask him about the others. As far as the Sleepy 9... that's actually just the original three starting holes of the championship course that Tilly broke off in the early 30's and six more that he built. As I mention in the chapter, you can still play fourteen of the original eighteen if you start on those and continue on to the big course at the present day second (original fourth)

[John Moore II]

What about Downer's Grove Park?

[John Dunn]

In the Evangelist, Bahto has Blind Brook as a Raynor, but if it is still the original from 1915 it should be a Macdonald - Raynor wasn't on his own yet that early. But Raynor could've gone back in and redesigned it later as he did at Chicago...(all but four holes at Chicago, that is.)

He does have Downers as a Macdonald and there website says season 119 - if that's true I'm bummed I missed that one. I was right there when I played Chicago. I'd have to see pictures of all nine holes to see if there's anything worth playing there. The point of the trip was to compare all of the different Macdonald "template" holes to one another and then see how Doak interepreted these at the end.

But this does raise a good point - Macdonald and Raynor worked as a team and its often difficult to tell how much of an influence one or the other had on some of the courses. I went with the ones I was certain Macdonald had a hand in because of historic evidence like letters and his own writing.

It wasn't meant to be overly analytical, just a fun way to celebrate the opening of Old Macdonald. One of the most enjoyable parts of the project is going to be lining up all of the template holes against each other in the final chapter and voting on my favorite of each with an honorable mention too (since there are so many good ones) Then I hope you all will pipe in and cast your votes too.

[John Moore II]

It seems, according to the history section of the Downer's Park website, that the course there would have been a very early CBM course. It would seem that it was earlier than NGLA. According to the golfillinois website, Downers Park GC was the original home of the Chicago Golf Club. And wasn't NGLA the place where he first started using the template holes? It may be that Downer's Park doesn't utilize the tempate holes and if that is the case (forgive me if I am totally ignorant here) wouldn't it be quite the course to see as it might be the only example of truly original CBM work?

[John Dunn]

I would argue that his use of templates is what makes him original... and besides, for the most part the holes don't resemble each other very much, just the strategies. In this regard you could say some Tillinghast courses are like variations on a single hole... hit it straight and don't go over the back of the green : )

[John Moore II]

I would argue that his use of templates is what makes him original... and besides, for the most part the holes don't resemble each other very much, just the strategies. In this regard you could say some Tillinghast courses are like variations on a single hole... hit it straight and don't go over the back of the green : )

Perhaps you are correct. But eiither way, if Downer's didn't use the template holes (am I correct in saying NGLA was where he first used the template holes?) then it is certainly unique in the portfolio of CBM; and at the very least gives the public another CBM course that is accessible to them, outside of The Greenbrier.

[John Dunn]

agreed... if its anything like the four holes at Chicago (and it will be if it is really an early - 1893 they claim - CB) it will have GIGANTIC square greens... and I mean SQUARE - look at the Sleepy Hollow Short hole for an example - and rectilinear bunkers crossing the landing areas and the fronts and backs of the greens. From the pic on the home page it looks nothing like that (and I am skeptical, I have to admit) which means it was totally redone and/or completely moved and is a CB in name only. But I hope I'm wrong.

[John Moore II]

Aerial image of the current Downers Park Golf Course, as detailed as I could get.

[John Dunn]

The shape that looks most authentic to me in this pic is the triangle green in the top left center... almost identical to the original sixth green at Sleepy Hollow... my interest is picqued. And besides it looks like a great track regardless. Thanks for the post John!

[John Moore II]

The shape that looks most authentic to me in this pic is the triangle green in the top left center... almost identical to the original sixth green at Sleepy Hollow... my interest is picqued. And besides it looks like a great track regardless. Thanks for the post John!

The green directly below the one you mention still seems to have a slight rectangular shape as well. And many of the greens seem to have significant distance between the green surface and the bunker itself. The green top-right with the two bunkers pops out as an example of one with a big gap between bunker and green.

[John Dunn]

yes, second to top right and bottom right both have cross bunkers behind the green... could be

[John Moore II]

yes, second to top right and bottom right both have cross bunkers behind the green... could be

I am wondering if anyone might have the ability to contact the Chicago Golf Club to see if they have a routing map from their original design that existed over this site. That would be a great piece of material to find. I have looked online to see if anything existed electronically, but I could not find anything from the turn of the 20th century.

[Ben Voelker]

The Downer's Grove Park District Golf Course was originally the Chicago Golf Club when it was built in 1892 according to their website.

http://www.dgparks.org/Golf/course-information-rates.htm

So I understand the history, CBM built two courses for Chicago Golf Club, with the original being converted into a public course when the club moved?

[John Moore II]

The Downer's Grove Park District Golf Course was originally the Chicago Golf Club when it was built in 1892 according to their website.

http://www.dgparks.org/Golf/course-information-rates.htm

So I understand the history, CBM built two courses for Chicago Golf Club, with the original being converted into a public course when the club moved?

Looking at the website, it would seem that you are correct; however, the website states that CBM built 18 holes on this site. Along with finding out how much of the original design elements still exist at Downers, it would be interesting to see what happened to the other 9 holes.

[Scott Warren]

I would argue that his use of templates is what makes him original... and besides, for the most part the holes don't resemble each other very much, just the strategies. In this regard you could say some Tillinghast courses are like variations on a single hole... hit it straight and don't go over the back of the green : )

It's funny, as I have played more Braid courses I have noticed some of the same holes - short par three surrounded by bunkers, mid-length par four doglegging where you can see the flag but the best angle in is from the outside of the dogleg but the lure of the flag almost guarantees you can't hit it there...

Perhaps the major difference was that Macdonald was completely open about where he was taking his inspiration from.

John, forgive me if I am wrong, but I'm thinking it was you who wrote a fantastic piece on The Island GC in Dublin that started with your encounter on the train with a group of teenagers on their way to the beach?

[John Dunn]

I did write that piece about the Island. Thanks for the kind words. That was even more fun and funnier than I was able to capture in writing. When I set out from my BnB with my golf clubs I didn't even know where the DART station was, what towns the golf courses were in, what trains went there, etc, etc. I literally stopped people on the street and asked them where Portmarnock was. They thought I was the funniest thing they'd ever seen. But they all knew where Portmarnock was because of the beach.

[Scott Warren]

I think Dublin is a good city in which to try something like that! If you walked out onto Charing Cross Rd in London and asked some geezer where Rye was you'd probably get a headbutt and your clubs nicked

I'd commend the piece to any GCAers looking for an enjoyable weekend read: A Day on The Island.

End of threadjack!

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