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Joe Bausch

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine in progress)
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2010, 01:18:32 PM »
#18.  This hole was originally designed as a par 5 (511 yards) with the Flynn green way up at the top of the hill near the clubhouse.  Many years later Gordon added an alternate green much lower and to the left, and this plays as a par 4 (426 yards). 

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

D_Malley

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2010, 02:24:51 PM »
Joe,
Great pics of one of my favorite philly golf courses.

They have a couple greens out there that have very few pinnable hole locations, due to severe slopes.

I am thinking specifically of #3 & #9

Mike Hendren

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2010, 03:28:48 PM »
If restricrted to a single word I would characterize Flynn's work as "graceful" from both routing and design perspectives. 

Mike   
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark Provenzano

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2010, 03:38:33 PM »
Great pictures! Thanks for sharing.

I haven't played there since '97 or '98, but it looks better than ever these days.

TEPaul

Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2010, 07:25:26 PM »
Mannies is a fine course. To me the real flavor of it is in those par 3s.

The Forse/Mannies project in the last some years has done a wonderful job with tree removal, really expanding some short grass areas in the approaches and around some greens.

There were 2-3 greens that had a few areas that used to be craaazy but they toned them down some. I particularly recall that back tier on #9 and the 17th green with some pins.

I wouldn't exactly say I miss it but I do remember fondly that massive tree at the front left of the 13th green. It made that hole probably the only semi-dog leg left par 3 I ever saw!  ;)

The other thing I understand Mannies made some real strides with recently is somehow fixing the real over-flow problems they used to have down on the second hole. That could create some real problems sort of akin to the way the river holes at Flynn's Lancaster used to be, sometimes necessitating the use of what was known as the "Sunset Six" which I understand are mostly not used or even there anymore.

When you get right down to it Flynn was pretty danged clever in the way he routed courses with rivers and creeks and such running through them. Think about them all.

mike_malone

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2010, 07:50:05 PM »
 I wish #2 were returned to its original, if I'm right. The creek ran to the left of the hole and wrapped around the green so you did not have a forced carry . The creek , instead of the trees now next to the creek would be in your mind if you approached from the left, the shorter route. Once again Flynn got it right the first time.
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2010, 09:10:06 PM »
Mike:

I don't believe the route or the placement of that creek along the 2nd hole has ever changed. It ran just as and where it does now in my recollection-----even though a smart wagerer probably shouldn't wager much on my recollection these days.

I think you've probably just gotten onto your usual jag that what Flynn originally did should never be messed with because of your fixation on those bunkers on the 7th hole at Rolling Green.

If you'd like to discuss some of these things further I'll see if Wayne's available and perhaps we will take you out to some diner on a Friday night.

mike_malone

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2010, 09:38:59 PM »
 Check the drawings
AKA Mayday

JNagle

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2010, 09:55:22 PM »
Joe,

Great photos.  I was at Mannie's in mid-May and Scott May (Supt) has the place looking incredible.  I can remeber standing on the veranda in 1996 or so and looking down the 1st hole (literally looking only down the first hole, because that was all you could see) and thinking wow, what is behind all of those trees.  The view now is great.  To stand on some of the far holes and look back and see the clubhouse is wonderful.

Mike Hendren,

The 4th and 9th greens have been modified (not totally rebuilt) and the upper and lower 18th greens along with the 17th have been rebuilt to gain more usable hole locations.  #3 has never really been discussed. 

Mayday -

The stream was modified very early with Flynn's involvement (as far as we can tell).  Old photos reveal the work being completed.  We suspect flooding was an issue, but cannot pinpoint exactly what was being done.  The drainage channel behind the green still exists, but to be honest I am not sure the stream went behind the green.   Much better hole with the crossing at the green.  Many trees have been removed on the left side of the hole bringing the stream more into pay.


Jim
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

mike_malone

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2010, 09:58:12 PM »
 I believe Flynn wrote of his disdain for crossing creeks on golf courses. If #2 were not a forced carry it would reduce the number to two of the creeks that force a carry just before the green and all three are even in the same direction. This would enhance the variety on the course.
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2010, 10:01:47 PM »
 Jim,

   I can understand that it may have been necessary to change the original for flooding reasons. I think the course would be better if it had one less forced carry to the green. I'm sure you experts could figure it out.
AKA Mayday

JNagle

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2010, 10:05:37 PM »
Mayday,

First off, hope all is well with you and everyone at RG.  It is funny that Flynn would write about his disdain for crossing creeks, yet he seemed to do it everywhere.  RG has two (with two on one hole), LCC has or had six originally, Lehigh has four........ the list is rather large.  If he were commisioned CC of York, there would have been some crossings.  Sounds like he changed his mind often.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 10:22:24 PM by JNagle »
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

TEPaul

Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2010, 10:20:23 PM »
"I believe Flynn wrote of his disdain for crossing creeks on golf courses."


Mayday:

You believe Flynn wrote of his disdain for crossing creeks on golf courses?? How about you just try to document that with what Flynn actually did write?  ;)

I have heard Flynn got ticked at various times with the use of water too prominently in architecture like at PV but I've never really seen that documented. I think we can prove on the ground that Flynn was not completely opposed to various and fairly long shots over water. The 13th at HVGC is one that comes to mind. Give me more time and I'm sure I can think of others. What about PCC's #6?

You pick the diner and we'll be there!  ;)

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2010, 10:23:22 PM »
The Classic Diner on Rt. 30 in Malvern, next time I am in the area :D
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Mike Hendren

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2010, 10:43:13 PM »
I believe Flynn wrote of his disdain for crossing creeks on golf courses.

Mike, how do you reconcile that with the 4th, 7th and 11th at Lehigh CC?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

TEPaul

Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2010, 10:52:34 PM »
"The Classic Diner on Rt. 30 in Malvern, next time I am in the area  ;D"


Jim:

That one is unbelievably good. And if we beat Mayday to too much of a pulp in that diner there is one of the best veterinary hospitals I have ever seen right behind it we can take him to.

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2010, 09:32:31 AM »
Jim, it would have been more at Lancaster had he not filled the creek bed fronting 7 green.

Joe: With what frequency is the upper green at 18 used at Manufacturers?

Joe Bausch

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2010, 09:38:54 AM »
Joe: With what frequency is the upper green at 18 used at Manufacturers?

Good question which I don't have the answer.  However, I'm wondering since both greens had flags that perhaps it depends upon the mood of the group!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2010, 09:43:23 AM »
I wish #2 were returned to its original, if I'm right. The creek ran to the left of the hole and wrapped around the green so you did not have a forced carry . The creek , instead of the trees now next to the creek would be in your mind if you approached from the left, the shorter route. Once again Flynn got it right the first time.

According to the Flynn drawing (go to the USGA Architectural Archive to see it), Mayday is correct.  There was also a greenside bunker right.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2010, 09:47:49 AM »
If you wish to view all 179 pics from my day at Mannies, visit the photo album at Frank Pont's site:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/USA/Pennsylvania/Manufacturers/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Dan Boerger

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2010, 09:49:38 AM »
I play Manufacturer's just about every year but I have never played to the upper 18th green. It's in a Monday outing, so they just may not open it for play in events such as that.

A lot to like about the place! Great par 3's and greens with terrific contour and complexity. Like Mayday, I could to with one or two less forced approach shots over water, but that speaks more to my skill set than anything else.

Question -- Were the cross creeks always as well fortified as they are now? Or, do we think Flynn envisioned more gradual and, I suppose, more lethal a hazard?
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2010, 10:13:13 AM »
Interesting question Dan.  I cant' speak to Manufacturers creeks but we have a narrow creek that could be stepped across at one time.
Thanks to development upstream, the pace of erosion has dramatically increased necessitating the fortification of the banks.

mike_malone

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2010, 10:14:31 AM »
 I'm having trouble finding the book where a few of Flynn's USGA writings are enclosed. But he definitely rails against the unfairness of of a shot hit slightly farther than another and ending up in the water. Most of my favorite ways he used creeks is as diagonal to the line of play.
AKA Mayday

Joe Bausch

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2010, 10:30:19 AM »
Some little birdie has told me that the 2nd green was not built as is shown in the Flynn drawing.  A 1925 Dallin aerial shows the green basically where it is currently with the creek fronting it.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

JNagle

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Re: Manufacturer's (Flynn, 1925): a photo tour (back nine now up)
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2010, 10:34:24 AM »
Below are a couple of early photos from Mannie's.  The first is from 1928, three years after opening.  The second is from the 30's.  In both you can see continued work being completed adjacent to the stream, 2nd and 5th greens.  The original stream flow in quite varied and does have smaller drainage swales that deviate from the main stream.  It is difficult to say that yes, the stream was relocated or they simply regraded an area for better drainage.  What is safe to conclude is that Flynn was involved with the layout.

1930's aerial


1928 aerial
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"