[Niall C]

There was a thread a while back on Castle Stuart which sadly got bogged down in a bit of an arguement on what was faux and what wasn't. I plead guilty to having taken part in it and failing to articulate my thoughts anything like as well as Philip and Michael have in this thread.

I had the pleasure of meeting and playing golf recently with Michael up at Dornoch and this thread reinforces the high opinion I formed of him then. What I find interesting is his analysis of the course which in a nutshell sums up my thoughts even though I haven't played it. I have however had a tour of the course before it opened this year courtesy of Stuart, the GM who was also heavily involved with the construction (and with Kingsbarns also) and it is clear that they shifted huge amounts of earth to create not only the look but the views on pretty well every hole. Very artfully done, and I'm sure user friendly but can't help feeling that it might prove a bit soul less when you get down to it. When you get over the views it is just a golf course after all and it is the challenges that it offers as a golf course that counts.

Anyway, I'm off to play it tomorrow in what promises to be typical Scottish weather  and it will be interesting to see if I enjoy it depsite my impressions/prejudices.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great debate guys, it’s wonderful that I've actually met all or you and how your voices ‘read’ off the screen. (Niall you should have waited until tomorrow before pitching in )


I hope to play there but I can't see it happening for a few years.  It will be interesting to see what players like Philip make of it after 3-5 return visits.  In the meantime all of this thread sounds a counter note to the earliest reporters, some of whom thought it the best new course in  GB&I!   I will watch how opinion gathers on this one very closely.


(PS anyone hear how Lord Richard of Dornoch rated it?)

[Michael Whitaker]

Niall,

Thank you for the kind words... I had a great time with you at Dornoch, as well. That was my first good day of golf on that trip, so you caught me at my best and didn't see too much of my dark side... which, unfortunately, can be VERY dark!!!

I think you will like Castle Stuart. It is a beautiful place with, as you say, views on every hole. My grandmother always said, "the proof is in the eating of the pudding." I can't wait to hear your impressions.

Please keep an open mind. I'm hoping you will find joy where I was troubled.

Mike

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

Your post #24 summarizes my feelings about CS very well.  I played it last June, sandwiched between Cruden Bay and Moray the day before and Dornoch, the day after.  Needless to say CS stood out as quite different in that company.  In my discussion with the management after the round I too was questioning the business model and the £150 green fee.  They seemed quite confidant that they could attract enough foreign travelers at that price to be successful.  They seemed to be quite happy to be targeting the Skibo Castle class of tourists.  As a golf nut tourist, I didn't get the feeling that I was their target market.  Like you, I said once was enough at that price.  Cruden, Moray and Dornoch collectively cost me about the same as CS.  Not a hard decision there.  It is sad that the pricing over-rides the design merits and playability and enjoyment of the course for me.

The course itself is as you and others have said, is beautifully presented and designed, although compared to its neighbors, the architecture felt in my face more at CS.  Perhaps it's just the lack of history and soul.

I wonder whether our UK compatriots see it differently, since they live with true links courses all the time, and CS presents a welcome change of pace, both design-wise and experience-wise.  To me it was an American-like experience.  That's not why I go to Scotland.  Will CS eventually transcend its location, price and style to be viewed as one of the best in the world where £150 will seem a small price to pay?  Time will tell.

[Sean_A]

It is sad that the pricing over-rides the design merits and playability and enjoyment of the course for me.

I wonder whether our UK compatriots see it differently, since they live with true links courses all the time, and CS presents a welcome change of pace, both design-wise and experience-wise.  To me it was an American-like experience.  That's not why I go to Scotland.  Will CS eventually transcend its location, price and style to be viewed as one of the best in the world where £150 will seem a small price to pay?  Time will tell.

Bryan

Its interesting that folks are identifying a price point at which unless the course is exceptional, they are one and done.  Its hard to tell if its the price or the course or the style of the set up which is the most off-putting, but I am sensing the price and style are the two bigger issues.  Is this down to there being other excellent alternatives in there area or is £150 too much to pay for a newbie design?  Here I thought I was the only one on this site who scoffed at the prices some of these premier designs charge. 

I don't think CS will get much business from the the GB&I folks who don't get a break with the fees.  My bet is a decent percentage of the business they do get will be because of the CS's location near the airport - its damn convenient to start/end a trip.  Folks on GCA.com would be amazed at the number of hard core golfers (members of clubs) in GB&I who would NEVER dream of paying £130 to play TOC.  CS to me seems like a place looking for the long haul touristas (aka Yanks in the main).  I do think there is an excellent chance the model could work because it sets itself apart from the traditional clubs and a lot of people like the idea of a bit of diversity on holiday. 

Ciao   

[Bill_McBride]

I'm curious what the proximity of Castle Stuart with its 150 quid green fee has done to the guest fee at Nairn?  Anybody?

Nairn was 80 quid in June 2008.  CS may have given Nairn an opening to increase theirs and still be well under.

[Mark Chaplin]

Bill - Nairn are £85 round & £125 a day for 2010 so a 5% rise in two years.

Sean - isn't a 100 year old club with honors boards and pictures of the captain in 1911 sporting a fine handlebar moustache the sort of diversity people are looking for on holiday.

My issue with modern US style designs in the UK is surely overseas visitors are coming for a model of golf different to that experienced at home. Two rounds at many of the high end new courses will pay for an annual overseas membership of a top 100 links course, where you will have a feeling of belonging and also contributing to keeping the traditional clubs going.

I was once asked if I'd plans to visit Bandon my answer was simply I've some of the best links in the world on my door step so if I visit the US I want the full country club experience. Likewise of you have that in the US why would you play the Ryder Cup Course at Gleneagles? 

[Gary Slatter]

I have friends from the St Andrews Club who have made the drive north several times to play Castle Stuart, and obviously they enjoy the course.  They also enjoy Kingsbarns and play there regularly through the season.   Both courses have a much better price for locals but one reason they play is for the "difference" which I feel is the american type service and comforts.

When I was at Fairmont we got bad press from the americans (not the ones playing) but the locals loved the fact that we tried to offer a different golf experience - we had 33,000 rounds and most of it was from Scots living within an hour and fifteen minutes drive.  As much as they like their golf, they also don't mind driving. Of course, we charged about 45% of what Kingsbarns charged, and our greens were always better!

George Peper and another US writer (Jason something) played CP the same day last September.  George fell in love and the other didn't like it at all.  Gordon Murray from St Andrews loves it!    I like it, but everyone should play it (on their way from Nairn to Dornoch)themselves and then decide.

[Brent Hutto]

Looks nice and depending on timing/routing of the day's travel I could imagine playing it and having a nice time.

But when it comes right down to it I passed up a day at Nairn for an extra 36 holes at Brora so what do I know...

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean,

For me it's a complex dynamic.  I paid £120 at TOC on the same trip and didn't think twice.  And, I've played there a number of times, so it wasn't a once and done course.  Years ago I played Pebble for what seemed at the time like an exorbitant fee, and I wouldn't go back at the current prices (but then it's twice as expensive as CS).  I'm tempted to go back to Bandon, but can't stomach the summer price scale.  All of these courses are significant designs worth visiting, but CS, PB, and Bandon are once and done for me because of the price point, although in reality I could afford to play any of them if I wanted.

So, to me I guess the price point trumps the design and fun quotient unless it is a course that appeals to some inner muse that I can't articulate.

Mark makes a good point vis-a-vis different models of golf appealing to people on each side of the ocean when they are traveling.  I've certainly made no effort to get to Gleneagles in my trips to Scotland.

 

[Gary Slatter]

Sean,

For me it's a complex dynamic.  I paid £120 at TOC on the same trip and didn't think twice.  And, I've played there a number of times, so it wasn't a once and done course.  Years ago I played Pebble for what seemed at the time like an exorbitant fee, and I wouldn't go back at the current prices (but then it's twice as expensive as CS).  I'm tempted to go back to Bandon, but can't stomach the summer price scale.  All of these courses are significant designs worth visiting, but CS, PB, and Bandon are once and done for me because of the price point, although in reality I could afford to play any of them if I wanted.

So, to me I guess the price point trumps the design and fun quotient unless it is a course that appeals to some inner muse that I can't articulate.

Mark makes a good point vis-a-vis different models of golf appealing to people on each side of the ocean when they are traveling.  I've certainly made no effort to get to Gleneagles in my trips to Scotland.

 

Brian good points.  Interesting thing about Gleneagles, they are often packed with UK corporates who want to play the US Ryder Cup 2014 Nicklaus course, while the Perry golfers (from NA) play the other courses.

[Philip Gawith]

My issue with modern US style designs in the UK is surely overseas visitors are coming for a model of golf different to that experienced at home. Two rounds at many of the high end new courses will pay for an annual overseas membership of a top 100 links course, where you will have a feeling of belonging and also contributing to keeping the traditional clubs going.

I was once asked if I'd plans to visit Bandon my answer was simply I've some of the best links in the world on my door step so if I visit the US I want the full country club experience. Likewise of you have that in the US why would you play the Ryder Cup Course at Gleneagles? 

Mark, if there is a rejoinder to your points, it is this: - you go to CS because Mark Parsinen/Gil Hanse are two people playing at the top of the modern development/design game. So - as part of the mix - you are curious to see what they are doing. For the same reason, you would go to Bandon because it i represents, arguably, the greatest concentration of high-end modern design that you can see in one place.  So, yes, you would go to US to see coutnry club style, but there are also other motivations for going there - though I understand why you might default the way you outline!

[Mark Chaplin]

Gary - The Braid designed Kings Course at Gleneagles is a stonker and IMO one of Scotland's/UK's finest inland courses. I'd happily spend a weekend playing the kings but not the Nicklaus course.

[David_Tepper]

I spoke this afternoon about Castle Stuart to a native Highlander (born in Dornoch, lives in Inverness). He was very positive about the place and thought the added offerings of the course (a driving range, a nice clubhouse with good food, friendly customer service, etc.) were a big plus. Of course, the fact that, as a local, he could play the course for 50 pounds did not hurt either.

I think some of us who go to Scotland to revel in the "olde world" charm and rustic simplicities of golf there make a mistake if we think that the locals enjoy them as much as we do. My guess is that many of them would not mind some more "modern" touches at their courses & clubs.     

[Mark Chaplin]

David - I personally enjoy the service at the likes of Archerfield and The Wisely and positively love the locker room at The Country Club, the bathrooms at Chicago Golf and the facilities at The Inverness Club and Oakland Hills however such delights come at a price the average Scot or English golfer isn't prepared to pay for. fom my limited experience the average Scot will pay less in dues each year than the food minimums at a good US club.

CS is clearly a very good course and their pricing bands for locals and more distant Scots is very sensible.

I am surprised the initial pricing heads for exclusivity rather than creating demand by getting more footfall through the door and spreading the word. I'd be interested to know how much full price business they are doing.

[Philip Gawith]

Mark - although it is not the point you are making, it is worth pointing out - since you mention the courses - that there is quite a big difference in the quality of golf at CS vs Archerfield and The Wisley. The Wisley has some beautiful holes, but I think you will agree really does feel like a bit of America plonked into the  middle of Surrey. At Archerfield, some of the GCA on the one course really does have the heavy-hand of earth-moving about it. At CS, whatever people feel about the business model, there can be no doubt that trying to build a very high quality golf course - with design values most on this site would applaud - was at the centre of this project.

[Anthony Gray]

  I just don't see what's not to love about CS. Some of the features that are critisized you will also find at Old Mac. CS is a wonderful golfing experience starting from the car park and ending with a clubhouse shower. Great shot values. Excellent routing. Isolation. Variety.

  Generous fairways with greenside interest...Who does that sound like. CS is a must play period. Then after your round travel a little southeast.

   Anthony

 

[Michael Whitaker]

Gary Slatter - Interestingly, the Perry Golf van was in the car park the day we played CS.

Niall - So, what did you think?

[Philip Gawith]

I was just reading Brad Klein's piece on Old Macdonald where he mentions fairways 60-70 yards wide and average greens of 14,600 square feet. I wonder how CS compares? I suspect the fairway width is similar but the greens maybe a bit smaller, though some are very large. Anthony you are probably the only person who has played both! Maybe you can advise!

[James Boon]

When I played CS last year I loved it. As Anthony says the course incorporates many of the values most of us on here see as fundamental to good design and I found it awesome fun to play! I also liked that for all the money spent, it must be the first new course I've ever played that doesn't scream "Championship" at you in every piece of marketing and literature which makes a pleasant change. Also, as I've not played many American style high end resort courses, this made for a great alternative experience for this Brit.

Is it too expensive at the moment? Yes! Would I want all new Scottish courses to follow this model? No! But I'm sure an extra top quality course in this area will help attract more golf tourists, which can only benefit the economy of the Highlands.

Cheers,

James

[James Boon]

Forgot to mention... Philip, many thanks for the photos!

Thinking further, I wonder what the classic analysis of a 10 round split would be in the area? How about:

Royal Dornoch 4
Brora 3
Castle Stuart 1 (I'd make this a 2 along with Brora, if it wasn't for the cost)
Golspie 1
Nairn 1

Still worthy of a decent golf trip I'd say!

Cheers,

James

[Anthony Gray]

I was just reading Brad Klein's piece on Old Macdonald where he mentions fairways 60-70 yards wide and average greens of 14,600 square feet. I wonder how CS compares? I suspect the fairway width is similar but the greens maybe a bit smaller, though some are very large. Anthony you are probably the only person who has played both! Maybe you can advise!

  The holes are more isolated at CS. CS has better views. CS has a neater clubhouse. Fairway width is close to equal. Greens have more movement and interest at OM. I would go 6-4 CS if I had 10 plays because of the total experience. Both have faux features that look like they have been there forever. Don't understand the complaints about them. Calling them eye-candy is a bit much. Both are just plane fun and playable.

  Anthony

[Gary Slatter]

Gary - The Braid designed Kings Course at Gleneagles is a stonker and IMO one of Scotland's/UK's finest inland courses. I'd happily spend a weekend playing the kings but not the Nicklaus course.

I agree 100%.

[Niall C]

Mike

I tried to post last night when I got back from the course but failed miserably with the technology.

I think your posts pretty well nailed it in terms of what it is, its a modern/American design with American style service levels which is aimed at the mid to high handicapper one play market market. Yes the course is wide open off the tee and I would agree that the fairways are fairly flat. Like wise the putting surface aren't wild but then it is a windy site. Its the green surrounds which I think are the courses principal interest and difficulty.

Everything is very artfully done although I still think it is a bit twee in some of the detail such as the part revetted bunkers in out of way places, the way some of the sleepers were used etc. Overall I had a great golf experience although I wouldn't call it a great course but then I'm sure they weren't trying to meet my idea of what constitutes greatness in a golf course. The course is far too open for my liking. Not that I hated it being open its just that it didin't get me excited by throwing in an occassional diagonal carry or fairway bunker to manouvre round. Basically I thought that it lacked interest off the tee, and that for a lot of average drivers including myself, is where a good bit of fun is to be had.

Yes in theory there are benefits to being on one side of the fairway as opposed to the other however for a lot of the holes I'm not sure it made much difference for a 10 handicapper like me. I would say however that it was easy enough to find your way round. The strokesaver went straight into my bag and didn't get opened until I finished the round and I doubt I was any worse off for that. Very few of the greens or should I say pin positions were so fiendish that it would only be prior knowledge that would save you from disaster, the only one I can think of was the middle left pin position at the 2nd with the drop off behind.

The only other slight bum note was I thought that on a lot of the landward holes the desire to seperate the holes with what is basically containment mounding gave the course a manmade feel. In that aspect alone I don't think they have lived upto Kingsbarns. The other comparison to make with Kingsbarns is that at CS it is sand capped while the soil at Kingsbarns is more of a mix which gives it a grittier feel. Personally I prefer CS. Grass wise, and I'm no agronomist, but I think CS has a fairly pure fescue mix (I think) which to my eye meant that the ball didn't take as much borrow as you get on traditional links but as I said I'm no agronomist so I'll probably get shot down for that one.

Overall, taking into account the conditioning, service, clubhouse etc, its a great golf experience and I wish them well. I strongly suspect Ill be back to play again and maybe I'll appreciate it even more second time around but I suspect it will be like KB in that my interest might wane after a few plays. Very enjoyable but not one to get the adrenalin pumping.

Other quick comments, 4 of us got round playing off the green tees in just over 4 hours walking, and that included a 12 year old and a 75 year old. Green to tee, 12th to 13th aside, the walks were fairly short and very manageable. Condition wise the course was outstanding, easily the best I've played this year in Scotland.

Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike

I tried to post last night when I got back from the course but failed miserably with the technology.

I think your posts pretty well nailed it in terms of what it is, its a modern/American design with American style service levels which is aimed at the mid to high handicapper one play market market. Yes the course is wide open off the tee and I would agree that the fairways are fairly flat. Like wise the putting surface aren't wild but then it is a windy site. Its the green surrounds which I think are the courses principal interest and difficulty.

Everything is very artfully done although I still think it is a bit twee in some of the detail such as the part revetted bunkers in out of way places, the way some of the sleepers were used etc. Overall I had a great golf experience although I wouldn't call it a great course but then I'm sure they weren't trying to meet my idea of what constitutes greatness in a golf course. The course is far too open for my liking. Not that I hated it being open its just that it didin't get me excited by throwing in an occassional diagonal carry or fairway bunker to manouvre round. Basically I thought that it lacked interest off the tee, and that for a lot of average drivers including myself, is where a good bit of fun is to be had.

Yes in theory there are benefits to being on one side of the fairway as opposed to the other however for a lot of the holes I'm not sure it made much difference for a 10 handicapper like me. I would say however that it was easy enough to find your way round. The strokesaver went straight into my bag and didn't get opened until I finished the round and I doubt I was any worse off for that. Very few of the greens or should I say pin positions were so fiendish that it would only be prior knowledge that would save you from disaster, the only one I can think of was the middle left pin position at the 2nd with the drop off behind.

The only other slight bum note was I thought that on a lot of the landward holes the desire to seperate the holes with what is basically containment mounding gave the course a manmade feel. In that aspect alone I don't think they have lived upto Kingsbarns. The other comparison to make with Kingsbarns is that at CS it is sand capped while the soil at Kingsbarns is more of a mix which gives it a grittier feel. Personally I prefer CS. Grass wise, and I'm no agronomist, but I think CS has a fairly pure fescue mix (I think) which to my eye meant that the ball didn't take as much borrow as you get on traditional links but as I said I'm no agronomist so I'll probably get shot down for that one.

Overall, taking into account the conditioning, service, clubhouse etc, its a great golf experience and I wish them well. I strongly suspect Ill be back to play again and maybe I'll appreciate it even more second time around but I suspect it will be like KB in that my interest might wane after a few plays. Very enjoyable but not one to get the adrenalin pumping.

Other quick comments, 4 of us got round playing off the green tees in just over 4 hours walking, and that included a 12 year old and a 75 year old. Green to tee, 12th to 13th aside, the walks were fairly short and very manageable. Condition wise the course was outstanding, easily the best I've played this year in Scotland.

Niall

Ditto!

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