[Jud_T]

There was a story this morning, I think in the Chicago Sun-Times, about Ben Crenshaw's dissapointment at the way the Colorado Golf Club is being presented for the Senior PGA.  Unfortunately it's not available on line, but his comments were something to the effect that the overwatering of the fairways and long rough was not how the course was designed to play.  Yet another missed opportunity to display F&F conditions in tournament play....

[Garland Bayley]

http://www.pga.com/seniorpga/2010/news/crenshaw052710.cfm

[Michael Moore]

To be fair to the PGA of America, this article also includes a quotation from Fred Couples, who is also a golf course architect, who said that "the course played nice."

[George Freeman]

Contradicting this:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44452.0/

[Matt_Ward]

Before everyone genuflects to BC -- be curious to know how dry the weather has been in and around the Denver area leading up to the event.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Before everyone genuflects to BC -- be curious to know how dry the weather has been in and around the Denver area leading up to the event.

I had a flight stop at DEN two weeks ago and it was snowing.

[Matt_Ward]

Also curious to know if course is being set-up to max length -- often times listed yardage is not what the players actually play.

[Matthew Rose]

Spring has been very wet and cold, even up to the beginning of this month. We've had a lot of dry, windy days lately; they may have overwatered as a result. This week has really been the first really hot weather of the year.

[Tom_Doak]

That is one way to short-circuit any criticism from the players about your new course ... beat them to it!

[Randy Thompson]

The best defense is a good Offense, I am with ya Tom!! Also very difficult to compare Couples with Crenshaw. Of all the signature, "architects", I would put Crenshaws architectural qualifications and understanding quite a bit above the others including Jack.

[Seth Berliner]

I was at CGC yesterday morning and the course looked good.  Tees were moved up in anticipation of the forecast of stiff breezes.  I would guess they did the same today with the wind blowing at a steady 20mph clip.  The rough looked penal in spots.  I wouldn't say the course was playing firm and fast but I also wouldn't say balls were landing and stopping quickly in the fairways.  According to the players, the greens were close to a foot slower than during the practice rounds, again most likely in anticipation of the winds strengthening.  If they turn off the water for the weekend and the wind blows, even par or higher will be the winning score. 

All in all I think the course set-up is fair.  We have to remember that the PGA has no prior benchmark as to how they set the golf course up so I think they are being cautious.  Just my opinion.

 

[Joel_Stewart]

Two players shot 66 (6 under today) in the morning.  Tom Lehman played in the wind in the afternoon and shot 68 so it seems receptive?

[Kirk Gill]

I spent a good part of the day at the short par 4 8th hole today. That green was anything but soft. The pin was on a small shelf towards the back left of the green. Time after time players threw short irons at the pin only to find those shots bouncing high before checking up on the back, or just off the back of the green.

I do believe that the ribbons of rough around the fairways are longer and more lush than the designers may have intended - they are certainly higher than normal.

When Tom Kite was on the green, he smiled and said "I knew they were gonna put a pin up here.....I just thought it would be on Sunday........heck, they'll probably put it up here again......."

And I'll say this - the course looks MUCH greener on television than it does in person. Not that it's brown, but it truly doesn't have that overwhelmingly lush, green appearance. Must be a filter of some kind.

[Brad Klein]

We're dealing with the PGA of America here. Last fall they narrowed the fairways; apparently the designed width was too generous.

[Mac Plumart]

14 looks fun to play.

[Gary Slatter]

The best defense is a good Offense, I am with ya Tom!! Also very difficult to compare Couples with Crenshaw. Of all the signature, "architects", I would put Crenshaws architectural qualifications and understanding quite a bit above the others including Jack.

why would you?

[Randy Thompson]

Gary,
Twenty five years ago I was in Texas as a superintendent of a PGA Tournament course and Ben was hired to do an additional nine holes and I walked the routing with him and even though it was before he teamed up with Coore, his knowledge was impressive and his heart was in the project. Coore`s was a superintendent at the same time in Texas. There relationship to me is like a good marriage in my opinion, they brought out the best in each other and learned and evolved into one of the two top modern design firms. I don`t think either one would have achieved this status on thier own. On the other hand I have worked with the Nicklaus group and its more about the almighty dollar than anything else and to much is delgated to senior design associates who are programed to reply, well Jack likes this and Jack likes that any ususally for some pretty lame reasons. Maybe I am wrong and he has a much more deeper architectual understanding than I have percieved, which could be true because he only made one two hour visit in the entire project development. The final result was nothing to write home about and the course has never achieved to reach it`s true potential, it has a very unfinished look and the board now does what the membership wants. They have moved on with their high design fees in thier pockets and don`t seem to care and I am glad in the end my name is only associated with the routing because I got tired of there dirty politics and got out when there were still seven holes to be shaped. In conclusion, C&C seem to be genuine and most of the signature design companies are all about show and achieve sucsess through insecure developers that are not sure how to market their product. Just look at the quality and quantity differences between the two groups. One is about quantity and the other is about design quality. Its a given that Nickllaus does produce a quality visually maintained product, in order to keep his market perception at a high standard in order to continue to charge outrageous fees.

[Matt_Ward]

Randy:

Interesting analsysis -- but you left out -- inadvertently or deliberately, that Ben chooses to work only a very select number of projects. Team Nicklaus doesn't do that and as a result with so many balls up in the air it's entirely likely there may be a drop-off in terms of quantity being pursued so hard. Place Ben with the same workload that Jack had has and I would wonder if the qualities that his fan base cites would remain at the same level. Or flip it around the other way -- give Jack just one or two designs to handle without any other distraction and I think his final product would be no less stellar in my mind.

One other exception I also have to add -- Jack's recent layouts -- say the last 15 years -- not everyone mind you but a good number are a good bit more than your comment that his work is tied predominanly to it being simply a "quality visually maintained product" - if you have the name(s) of such efforts you have personally played -- please illuminate me and others what ones specifically you are speaking about. I'd be happy to point out the ones I have plauyed that are far deeper and more interesting than just a visual dimension that you referenced.

[Gary Slatter]

Thanks Randy (and Matt).  Good to know why people have their opinions about stuff, makes the world go round. 

[Kirk Gill]

Just as an aside, if anyone tivo'd the second round of the 2010 Senior PGA that they showed on the Golf Channel, is there any way you could burn a copy for me? Needless to say I'll take care of all expenses. Contact via IM. I appreciate it.

Back to the subject at hand..........

[Randy Thompson]

Matt,
That was my point, one is quantity orientated and the other quality. Duriing that walk through, some twenty five years ago with Ben, it was clear his love for the history of the game and his admiration for some of the architects of the past and the need to get back to the basics. This was a moment when TPC and courses similar to that design style were getting all the attention and today the attenttion has shifted to more of what he was preaching twenty five years ago and I am sure he influenced Bill in this direction. I have not played a lot of Nicklaus courses, around five, so by no means do I claim to be an expert. I have been involved in around twenty designs and I know how much heart and time it takes to create a good product and all the factors that have to be right in the formula. My best products to date are two products where I had continual involvement throughout the years and currently I am doing the second nine holes of a course just a couple of miles from my house and I am super pleased with how it is coming out and should be our best product to date. I have walked the Bear Club, a course that I belive was designed to sell clients in his neighborhood and he put alot of his personal time into this one becasue it was convient and an important marketing tool. Whats your thoughts on the course. Mine are a darn good track but not one of the top ten in Florida. Granted Florida doesn`t have the best land but rumors have it in the near future, there may be two new courses in Florida, one Doak and one C&C! How do you think they will compare to the Bear Club? But were drifting here, how much will Crenshaw have to with that club? If I had to pick one of them to design a course for me and they dropped all there other responsibilities and promised 100% participation, I would pick Crenshaw, I think he is more qualified and knows what it takes to create a truely unique and strategic golfing experience.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I shall defer to those at the event. The only thing that looks anything but perfect to me is the rough in certain places. It is gettting to much water here and there. The fairways look to be running pretty good to me.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

To be fair to the PGA of America, this article also includes a quotation from Fred Couples, who is also a golf course architect, who said that "the course played nice."

Another PGA architect.
No landscaping education, no stewardship, no credentials except being able to break par.
Another IMG protogee

[Craig Van Egmond]

Freddie's got to be the biggest sham of these so called player architects.

[Randy Thompson]

Craig,
Your statement could make a great new thread, Who is the biggest sham in PGA player architects and WHY? My guess is there are a lot that would give Freddie a run for his money.

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