[Rick Sides]

I was watching the Senior PGA at the Colorado Golf Club today.  The course looks fantastic.  I heard the commentator tell a great story about the method Bill Coore often uses when routing a golf course.  The announcer said Coore often watches the animals on the property, then takes note of the paths(trails) they travel on while walking.  Coore then factors the animals movements when routing because the animals will usually take the most practical route, therefore, as Coore lays out the routing, humans will have an easier time walking the course as well.  I thought this strategy was genius.

[JC Jones]

I dont know, after playing Sugarloaf Mountain twice in the past 6 months I'm thinking that those animals must have been cross-eyed.

[Rick Sides]

Good stuff JC.  I havn't been to Sugarloaf yet.  Maybe the animals Coore followed there was a rabid racoon.  I have played golf 3 times in Florida and everytime I played there, I have seen a racoon running in broad daylight on the course; usually racoons out during the daytime indicates it has rabbies.  Needless to say, I stayed as far as hell away from the racoons each time.

[JC Jones]

Good stuff JC.  I havn't been to Sugarloaf yet.  Maybe the animals Coore followed there was a rabid racoon.  I have played golf 3 times in Florida and everytime I played there, I have seen a racoon running in broad daylight on the course; usually racoons out during the daytime indicates it has rabbies.  Needless to say, I stayed as far as hell away from the racoons each time.

I only saw raccoons on a course 1 time while I was in Florida.  I was playing with Mayhugh in West Palm and I have to say, he was strangely attracted to them.  I think being from Kentucky he was just letting the group know he was hungry.

[Chip Gaskins]

Colorado Golf Club is fantastic (with the exception of one hole).  C&C are simply at the top of their game.  Call me a butt boy.

[Tom_Doak]

I've had the great opportunity to watch Bill at work on a routing over the past few months.  For two guys who say many of the same things, we sure work differently!  And I learned a lot.

Bill really routes his courses on foot, so I don't think it's as much a tendency to watch the animals, as to follow the trails they've left through the native vegetation when he is getting around a site.  Of course, he is right that those trails tend to be on the path of least resistance, but they are especially so when the animals have cleared a way for you.  I've worked on a couple of sites where we had guys with machetes working ten feet in front of us, and it's hard to get a sense for where you are going that way.

[Ronald Montesano]

JC,

If you were really mean, you'd have recognized that in Kentucky, they only eat the raccoons from the shoulder smorgasbord.

[Davis Wildman]

Tom,

You're so right about it being difficult to know where you are going or for that matter, to know exactly where you are in thick vegetation when on the ground.

Being the tech-geek that I am, it is possible to use pro-grade submeter gps, WAAS capable so you have 'realtime' positioning, on the ground...into that load the site aerial and topo, use the 'line feature' in the mapping software, it like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs, and simply record your position/movement across the site.

You can see yourself on the ground, on the handheld PDA, like Mike Nuzzo says "I'm a giant pencil" as you go, make numerous routes, load that into you PC and voila...you have each day's recon study and evaluate.

Also possible to view alternate routing on the same basemap.

Maybe better to use a ruggedized tablet PC for bigger screen...my tired old eyes sure appreciate it.

Frankly, some gps setups are so ergonomic, you can wear them and not even know you have it on you.  Antenna in hat on your head, small lightweight gps in your pocket or vest.

Just a thought for what's it is worth.

[Tom_Doak]

Davis:

I know that such technology is available; in fact, Mike Nuzzo was dying to come down and help us out down at our mystery site.

Bill and I just do everything you said in our heads, and then go back to the hotel at night and make notes on the map.  It may not be quite as efficient for showing anybody else what we are doing, but we generally aren't showing anything to anybody else unless they are going to get out there and walk with us and see the same things we've seen.

There are times when the GPS would certainly come in handy ... when you see a tree in the field and want to know exactly where it is on the map, so you can plan the hole around it.  Our method is slower in that regard.  But in the end, we always manage to save the tree.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Unless it's hard to see a site because of tons of trees or vegetation etc I really don't see why an architect would route a course other than on foot. You can certainly see a lot of the long views and such from a golfers perspective that way you can't pick up on a contour map.

[Kirk Gill]

Colorado Golf Club is fantastic (with the exception of one hole).  C&C are simply at the top of their game.  Call me a butt boy.

Chip, I'm interested in your take on which hole you don't like, having played the course.

That property was probably a pleasure to route on the ground, as that kind of ponderosa forest land is fairly open, and visible to the walker/hiker.

[Joe Bentham]

I know Bill Coore used this method at Bandon Trails, and it is in part the genesis for the name 'Bandon Trails'.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I dont know, after playing Sugarloaf Mountain twice in the past 6 months I'm thinking that those animals must have been cross-eyed.

Wow.
That is very funny!

Bill also routes holes across features that aren't natural walks - not every hole follows a trail - thankfully.

If Tom learned a lot, imagine how much I would have learned helping at the mystery site.
My process are more efficient and I don't use them as a crutch, it just makes it easier to get to the end result.
Unfortunately there isn't much reward in being more efficient these days.

Cheers

[Ben Kodadek]

Gary Koch (who I think does a very fine job in the booth) mentioned that Coore had found 88 holes on the property before construction began.  That blows my mind.  As an architect, is it entirely dependent on the property or do you try to find as many holes as possible, regardless of your site.  Surely, not every site will allow for 88 options....

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

"More efficient" is a matter of opinion.  You might not have to walk as much as Bill, but in the end, efficiency is about getting the best results; and you can't show that until you get your own chance.


Tom P:

Bill's process is terrific and thorough, I don't think I have ever seen anyone put the puzzle together quite the same way.  I won't give all the details away.  But, some of the best holes I've ever built were holes I don't think I would have ever seen on the ground, and there are a few that I doubt Bill would have seen either.  They were all about connecting Point A to Point B to Point C, but Point A (the tee) was not quite where you'd have walked off the previous green to look for the next hole, or the route from A to B was quite rugged and wouldn't have seemed feasible when walking around.

[Norbert P]

. . .  efficiency is about getting the best results; . . .



 . . . Bill's process is terrific and thorough, I don't think I have ever seen anyone put the puzzle together quite the same way.  . . .

  To emphasize the first point, the golf course design must function efficiently.  The process of how that ultimate goal is achieved is not always by the most efficient use of time routing.  There are some immeasurable providences and inspirational discoveries that occur that throws the How-To books in the fire.  
It reminds me of an old axiom I was taught when I was in management.     MBWA - Management By Walking Around.  It sounds aloof and innefficient but it encourages direct involvement on many levels of a matrix.




  I don't know Bill's process and perhaps GPS tools are effective and useful, but judging by Bill's work, and the fine words Dan
Proctor has told me about the man, I think he was born with all those hi-tech tools, and a heightened appreciation for nature and humanity, and their processes.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Davis:

I know that such technology is available; in fact, Mike Nuzzo was dying to come down and help us out down at our mystery site.

Man we still have to refer to this as a "mystery site"?

I can't wait to see what you guys do there.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I'm more anxious about getting that project off the ground than you are, believe me ... but we still don't have the go-ahead yet.  Maybe in the next 30 days.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Would an extra 3 or 4 days spent at routing by walking the extra mile make the golf course more expensive to the client or break any deadline?

Ulrich

[Tom_Doak]

Ulrich:

You could argue that Bill and I charge more than some other architects because our process is so time-consuming.

Or, you could argue that we charge more because we have proven we can deliver quality, which might have something to do with the extra time.

P.S.  It's not just 3-4 more days.

[Ron Csigo]

Tom,

This is an elementary question from a GCA neophyte, but how much time do you generally spend at a site in order to create a first draft of the routing?  How much additional time for the final draft or is the final draft still ongoing while the project is in the construction phase?  I'm sure the timeframes vary but just wanted to get a ballpark idea. 

[Adam Clayman]

Ulrich:

You could argue that Bill and I charge more than some other architects because our process is so time-consuming.

Or, you could argue that we charge more because we have proven we can deliver quality, which might have something to do with the extra time.

P.S.  It's not just 3-4 more days.

Tom, Couldn't you argue that you charge less?

If a tour pro gets paid for his 5 minutes of involvement, and you get paid for your 2 years, when you break it down into $/hr aren't you making much less?

[Don_Mahaffey]

I think people make too many assumptions. First one being that because a guy like Mike Nuzzo walks a site day after day with a GPS unit that somehow he's not in touch with nature or some such garbage. I walked Wolf Point for a month with Mike before a single shovel of soil was moved. At first, to be quite honest, I thought all the gps mapping stuff was a bit over the top...until we started to gather the data and use it to route the course. Hey, if you want to walk a site every day and go home at night and make notes fine. Tell me what's wrong with making notes the whole time you’re walking and then compiling those notes at night? The gps data is nice because you always know where you’re at... You don't have to run back and forth...hey pace that off to see how far we are from the tee, or are these holes too close together, or whatever...I've seen it done a number of ways and although i agree with Tom that the finished product is the key, their is no way you will ever convince me that if it takes you twice as long to get there (time is money...especially when your paying travel expenses), then it must be better because it took more time. If the final product is what matters, then why is taking more time better than getting it done quicker, and gathering data all along the way that will save money down the road when the construction starts? At Wolf Point, while we were routing we were also surveying the site. Maybe to the laymen that means nothing, but surveying is expensive and it is not more efficient if you need a survey crew on site first.
All these romantic ideas of routing is great, but in the end, efficiency is a lot more than just getting to the final product. If you can get there for 5 or 8 or 12% less then you are being more efficient. And there are tools like what Mike uses that help get you there. I doubt the "walkers" are generating base layers for maps for future use by supers...so to get those maps your paying for them...Nuzzo is making them and updating them every time he's on site. I don't think its smart to just dismiss that unless you've seen the efficiency of it firsthand.
Efficiency is about building a great product for a sustainable cost. What good is it to build a highly ranked course if it goes bankrupt a few years later?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Needless to say i am watching a good bit of golf now myself. I had the pleasure of listening to Bill Coore give a talk back in March. He discussed the animal trials that day. Most of the discussion centered around Friers Head, Sand Hills and Bandon Trails. I missed a chance to play Colorado Golf Club last summer but am really enjoying to TV view. I wish he has discussed this course more.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

This is an elementary question from a GCA neophyte, but how much time do you generally spend at a site in order to create a first draft of the routing?  How much additional time for the final draft or is the final draft still ongoing while the project is in the construction phase?  I'm sure the timeframes vary but just wanted to get a ballpark idea. 

Ron:

Usually, if I've had a few days to look at a topo map before I visit the site for the first time, I'll have a first draft of a routing (or at least a partial one) by the time I hit the ground.  Sometimes I only wind up using one or two of those holes ... once, it was 18 of them, but that might have been a fluke.  At the same time, it's often the case that the owner wants me to make a visit before a good map has been made, and in those cases, I rarely get much done until I've got one.

On average it takes me about 10-12 days of walking the ground, ideally spread out over a few months, in order to feel comfortable that I've arrived at the best solution.


Don:

Efficiency is great, but nobody should imply they get better results than Bill Coore, and most of his clients are happy to pay him to walk around all he wants.  [I'm sure he could figure out that many more courses per year if he was more efficient, but hopefully Mike is as grateful as I am that Bill doesn't want to do more by being more efficient!] 

I'm not sure what you use all of those "base layer" maps for, but the ones which have holes you didn't use in the final plan are not adding anything to your efficiency.  For that matter, when Bill says he has come up with 70 holes on a site, I usually think it's only the 18 he decides upon that matter ... except when I get to take a few of his leftovers for my own course!

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