Sebonack's Flirt !

[Matt_Ward]

Have to give the folks at Sebonack all the credit in the world -- they will be hosting a future US Women's Open and should the Shinnecock / USGA meltdown continue (a true pity for the golfer's who want to see the Men's Open return there) it appears likely that Sebonack is attempting to demonstrate it can be a eastern LI alternative to the great layout nearby.

No doubt hosting a Women's Open is a far different matter than a Men's Open.

However, given all the hurdles that Michael P had to overcome in getting the course built and in handling the two egos of Nicklaus and Doak I would not imagine that anything is beyond his grasp.

The Men's Open needs to return to Shinnecock but time and tide wait for no man. And no course either.

[PThomas]

i'd love to see that too Matt...but would the USGA take the Open to a course with such undulating greens?  someone told me they might modify some of them for the women's tournament

[Jud_T]

i'd love to see that too Matt...but would the USGA take the Open to a course with such undulating greens?  someone told me they might modify some of them for the women's tournament

Oh god, here we go......

[Chip Gaskins]

I played Sebonack a few weeks ago on a Long Island trip and was blown away.  It was much better than I expected.  You know, the whole camel is a horse made by committee saying.  But wow, it was fantastic.  Kudos to Michael P for pulling it all together.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

I see the Women's Open as a good opportunity to gauge the course through professional play. Of course, it's not the men but it will give the USGA a good idea on logistics and other course related items.

The greens are undulating in a number of spots but Oakmont and ANGC have more on their sides than the LI layout.

Sad to say Shinnecock's absence is a major downer to me and countless others who love the course. But Eastern Long Island will likely get another men's Open in the near future -- Shinnecock will either be on that dance card or someone else will.

[Chip Gaskins]

Matt

You seem to know details on the Shinnecock - USGA relationship.  Or at least you seem to say there might not be another U.S. Open headed for Shinnecock.

Chip

[Mark Hissey]

i'd love to see that too Matt...but would the USGA take the Open to a course with such undulating greens?  someone told me they might modify some of them for the women's tournament

I can confirm that there has been no conversations like that whatsoever.

[PThomas]

i'd love to see that too Matt...but would the USGA take the Open to a course with such undulating greens?  someone told me they might modify some of them for the women's tournament

I can confirm that there has been no conversations like that whatsoever.

that's good to hear Mark, thanks

[PCCraig]

The last thing we need to do is worry about how quickly we can get the US Open back to the Hamptons. There are way too many great golf courses all across the country that deserve to host the tournament, and it's a shame that the USGA is hung up on the area. So what if it takes 20+ years for it to go back to Shinnecock? They've already hosted many times in the past, and the last time they hosted they had to make the conditions goofy to "protect" par. 

[jeffwarne]

The last thing we need to do is worry about how quickly we can get the US Open back to the Hamptons. There are way too many great golf courses all across the country that deserve to host the tournament, and it's a shame that the USGA is hung up on the area. So what if it takes 20+ years for it to go back to Shinnecock? They've already hosted many times in the past, and the last time they hosted they had to make the conditions goofy to "protect" par.  

Pat,
The USGA chose to make the conditions goofy to protect par.
One doesn't need to do that to "protect par" at Shinnecock.
They could play the US Open there tomorrow, and I would argue it would be a much better tournament if they played it in the conditions the members face every day--not the goofy setup put forth in 2004

[Jason Elwell]

The last thing we need to do is worry about how quickly we can get the US Open back to the Hamptons. There are way too many great golf courses all across the country that deserve to host the tournament, and it's a shame that the USGA is hung up on the area. So what if it takes 20+ years for it to go back to Shinnecock? They've already hosted many times in the past, and the last time they hosted they had to make the conditions goofy to "protect" par. 

Amen, Amen, Amen! As a Southerner it's so frustrating to have the US Open played on Long Island what seems like every other year. As a side note, are there any good threads on here about Sebonack? Being a relative new-comer I would love to get more background on it.

[Matt_Ward]

Chip:

I've talked to a few people who have an understanding of what is happening and it seems likely Shinnecock may not be on the rota for a bit of time. That would be unfortunate. Jeff is 100% spot on -- there is no need to protect Shinnecock in the manner that the USGA did with the '04 event. The course is solid enough in all ways possible.

Pat:

Having Shinnecock return to the rota should be a clear priority. The course is the finest test imagineable -- not having it is a loss to golf and to the US Open -- the issue is not about the stuffy and snooty Hamptons as so many people might opine.

The USGA's heavy hand during the '04 was an affront to the qualities of the architecture of the course itself.

[Matt_Ward]

Be curious to know if Michael P discussed big time tournament golf with JN and TD during the design process at Sebonack.

[Sean Leary]

Be curious to know if Michael P discussed big time tournament golf with JN and TD during the design process at Sebonack.

I believe Tom has said that he did...

[Matt_Ward]

Be curious to see what length Sebonack plays for the Women's Open and if the green speeds are allowed to get beyond 10.

If the course plays 6,500 yards and has green speeds are 12 or more you can take bets that anything more than a ten women will break 300 there.

[Tom_Doak]

Be curious to know if Michael P discussed big time tournament golf with JN and TD during the design process at Sebonack.

I believe Tom has said that he did...

Actually, I do not recall us ever discussing the subject of hosting a U.S. Open type event at Sebonack.

I did discuss another tournament possibility with Michael, strictly a one-shot deal.  But that was just general discussion ... we never talked about any of the holes in that light, nor about things like gallery flow etc.

As for green speeds, I have heard that Mike Davis told management that he thinks the set-up could have the greens very fast for the Women's Open ... 12 or 13 on the Stimpmeter.  All I can say about that, is that the greens weren't designed for those speeds.

[Mike Sweeney]

Actually, I do not recall us ever discussing the subject of hosting a U.S. Open type event at Sebonack.

Tom,

There is always the chance that Mike P talked to the architect with 18 majors and not you !!

[jeffwarne]

Be curious to know if Michael P discussed big time tournament golf with JN and TD during the design process at Sebonack.

I believe Tom has said that he did...

Actually, I do not recall us ever discussing the subject of hosting a U.S. Open type event at Sebonack.

I did discuss another tournament possibility with Michael, strictly a one-shot deal.  But that was just general discussion ... we never talked about any of the holes in that light, nor about things like gallery flow etc.

As for green speeds, I have heard that Mike Davis told management that he thinks the set-up could have the greens very fast for the Women's Open ... 12 or 13 on the Stimpmeter.  All I can say about that, is that the greens weren't designed for those speeds.

In my opinion, that would be disappointing (12 or 13 on stimp)
A great course where the greens are sloped enough to be extremely challenging at 9-11, and they want to amp them up.
Which of course means using the least interesting pin placements.
Did I mention that the ladies have mediocre short games(compared to elite male players) to boot...

[Matt_Ward]

Sebonack with green speed at 12 or more and frankly you can take bets that any women can truly handle those speeds -- heck most men at a world class level would have just as many issues.

The women should play the course at no more than 6,300 yards and 10-11 max putting speeds.

Anything more than that -- is suicidal -- let me also point out that a fresh breeze each day would only add to the pain and suffering/

[Mark Hissey]

The course will be played at 6800 yards.

The green speeds will be challenging. Not suicidal.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

6,800 yards !

Surely you jest.

What length will the 2nd and 3rd holes be.

Have the women play #2 from anything close to 425 yards and the stroke average for the hole will not be lower than 3.5. Ditto the same for the 3rd hole.

Sebonack has plenty of contour and limited flat surface areas where bailout options are prevalent or even desirable. With tucked pins the need for pinpoint approaches will be a real test for the women -- at 6,800 yards and with 12 stimped greens - the women will be begging for mercy in my mind.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

Maybe the women are better players than you think.

I sure hope the course gives them a chance to play well.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I saw the world's best women play the Sybase event at a tame Hamilton Farm and they had their moments there. Bringing women to a place like Sebonack and having it play 6,800 yards as Mark suggests -- coupled with greens at 12 or better on surfaces with such pitch and movement -- and throwing in the daily wind fluctuations and rough, etc, etc, and you have the clear recipes for a big time scoring issue for many of them.

I do agree -- give the women an opportunity to score with some real care in mind.

It's very e-z forthe women to be humiliated there if the course is presented with too demanding conditions and yardage.

[Mark Hissey]

Don't be surprised to see the yardage fluctuate daily.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

OK -- so tell me is it 6,800 yards actual or is that just the listed yardage that won't be in operation all the time ?

Put that actual yardage in play with 12 or more stimp greens and the wind and rough and the women -- with just a few exceptions -- will have their hands full to the max.