Worst green I've seen -- #4 at Spyglass

[Rick Shefchik]

I'll skip any other critique of Spyglass, which I played for the first time last week, except to say that I found it to be overrated (could have been the recently aerified fairways, but even the best wooded holes reminded me of courses I've played in Minnesota.)

But what's the deal with the green on #4? The model for the contouring seemed to be one of those three-level slides your kids ride on gunny sacks at the State Fair. Because of recent rains, the pro shop told us all the hole locations would be "high and dry" -- which meant that on #4, the hole was on the first third of the green. I can't imagine that tier ever being used during the AT&T; none of us could get a ball to stop near the hole, and the green speeds must have been slower than they are during a tournament. One guy in our group hit a reasonably good chip shot from just in front of the green and watched it roll off the first tier (which is about ten feet wide), gather speed as it rolled off the second tier and finally come to rest at the far edge of the third tier, leaving him a 60 or 70-footer back up the two tiers to a hole location at which the ball was unlikely to stop anyway.

From the fairway all you see is iceplant left and the little tongue of the first tier. The rest of the green is below your line of vision, and the wider lowest tier is surround by mounds. It's a lousy target and a terrible green, in my estimation. I thought it was out of character with every other green on the course, and with any other Robert Trent Jones green I'd ever played. Does anyone have any insight into the creation/evolution of this green, or a reasonable defense for it?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rick,

I've always felt that after the first 5 holes, the golf course reminded me of some courses in North Carolina.

But, I did like the 4th hole and the green.

If you can see the green from the 2nd fairway and 3rd tee, it shouldn't come as a surprise.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Rick, I feel #4 is one of the great holes in golf. I mean in all of golf too. It is great fun to sit 120 to 160 out and hit different kinds of approaches to that green I also love to chip and put around on it. The course to me is very strong and very solid. I do not put it in an elite group of the top 50 in the world though.

[Dan Grossman]

I always thought that hole (and green) was pretty
cool.  However, I don't specifically remember the
green well enough to speak about pin placements.

Here is a picture of the green.

[Rick Shefchik]

Nice photo, Dan -- though it doesn't begin to convey how steep that green is from front to back, or how narrow it is at the top. The hole location the day we played was just about as far left (in the photo) as possible.

[THuckaby2]

Rick:

You got the worst of all possible pin locations.  Put it on the bottom shelf and that is one fun shot.

I'm with the others here, I love the hole and find the green to be very cool.  Isn't it supposed to be similar to a green at Pine Valley?

As for Spyglass as a course, well... I go back and forth.  I haven't been there in a few years, so I'm going to reserve judgment again until after I see it on Monday.  It is one hell of a TOUGH course, without a doubt... For whatever reason it's never jazzed me though, not to the extent of what Tiger B. says, but I trust him implicitly so maybe I'll get more jazz-ation on Monday.

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rick,

If you don't like partially blind greens behind sand dunes, you ain't gonna like 14 at the Quarry.  I hope you like the rest of the course!

[Mike Benham]

I thought it was out of character with every other green on the course, and with any other Robert Trent Jones green I'd ever played.

Your statement is absolutely correct in that holes 2-5 are completely different than the rest of the course and the 4th green specifically.  

Unfortunately, I agree with some of the other posters that it is probably my most favorite hole on the course.  

Depending on the wind conditions, and the hole placement, a variety of shots can be played into the green with the least desireable probably being the American style of flying it to the hole and hoping it sticks ...

[John_Conley]

But what's the deal with the green on #4? The model for the contouring seemed to be one of those three-level slides your kids ride on gunny sacks at the State Fair.

Rick:

Is anyone besides me supposed to get this reference?

As for the wooded 13 holes at Spyglass, I played it in 1986 and thought the back 9 was pretty similar to Hazeltine.

If it were routed to showcase the property used for the first 5 at other points during the round, I can't help but wonder if it would give off a different vibe.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jeff -- As long as it isn't so steep that you don't have a realistic hole location on one-third of the green, or isn't so narrow that you can mow it with one pass, I'm sure I'll like your green on #14. I don't mind blind greens behind sand dunes at all -- just certain ones.

[Bob_Huntley]

Rick.

You should have seen how tough it was when first built. The ice plant has been cut back from the green somewhat and the slope does not appear to be as severe as in 1966-70.

The course does flag after the first five holes but No. 8 can ruin a decent score on the front nine. The par three twelth is a super hole, I like the par 5 fourteenth, the 16th has been defanged with the removal of the pine in the landing area of a good drive. The seventeenth hole, a short par four can be a disaster waiting to happen, the 18th a forgettable long par four.

Getting back to the fourth green, it requires a thoughtful aproach dependent on the hole position, not just a big old high thump.

[Rick Shefchik]

Mike -- I liked the hole a lot; just not the green. I take your point about the aerial shot not being the ideal choice, but with that front hole location, we all tried bouncing it/chipping it in, and none of us knew how to hit a shot on the ground slow enough to keep the ball from rolling at least one or two tiers farther down the green. I guess we'll just have to keep practicing.

John -- Is Minnesota the only state that has one of those slides at the State Fair? Another feather in our cap!

[ForkaB]

Hang in there, Rick, even though you are wrong.  There was a guy who used to post on GCA and was even a GD rater who also thought #4 Spyglass was crap.  Whatever happened to him.......?

[Rick Shefchik]

Bob -- Thanks for clearing up a mystery. I was wondering what happened to the tree on #16. My yardage book indicated it was there, but said you couldn't see it from the tee. I couldn't see it from the fairway, either, even after hitting my drive down the extreme right edge of the fairway. I wondered if, rather being a Supid Tree, it was just an Overhyped Tree.

[ForkaB]

(Not Sponge) Bob

12 at Spyglass is even more great (to me) as that is where I had my 1st hole in one.........

[A_Clay_Man]

Rick- The first time I saw this green I loved it. Eddie thought it was goofy.
Now, I have seen that green hundreds of times and I still think it's great. I've seen everything from a 2 to a 12. The truth is, it is only two tiers and because of it's gunsight shape allows for many options on how to get a ball to where you want it.

I always favored the very right side because there is a slight climb before the cascading fall to the back but when the pin is on the front half, being creative with the dune on the left was often prudent.

As for the rest of the course I don't think it is over-rated mostly because the land dictates the shot and if you ever get a flat lie, you're probably on the range.

[golfer4life]

Rick,

having played a lot and at caddied a lot at Spy, I can understand your frustration with #4 green.  Personally, I had come to love that hole, because of the green.  I always felt the pin placement dictated your tee shot (i.e. if the pin was below you could lay back on your tee ball and hit a 8-9 iron to the top and have it roll down the hill, and if the pin was up top you should drive it farther into the narrowing of the fairway to play a low shot that bouncing through the neck).  
That being said, I did 6 putt the green in a tourney so maybe my play wasn't the best.
I have never played Hazeltine, so can't compare, but will say that Spy before the Pitch Canker killed 25% to 45% of the old pines was extremely narrow.  Always damp too, making it play much longer than the actual yardage.
I am very biased so you can ignore it all.
GFL

[Bob_Huntley]

Honestly, when I said that the 12th was a super hole, I did not know that our resident curmudgeon had aced it. The beauty of an ace there, it is open for all to see.

I shall buy myself a gin and tonic and send you the tab. Thanks.

[ForkaB]

Bob

It wasn't the whole world who saw it, but at least 8 Japanese tourists with cameras were witnesses and I am told that I am a legend in Osaka.......

Please send the tab to Hoffman.

Rihc

[Dan Kelly]

The model for the contouring seemed to be one of those three-level slides your kids ride on gunny sacks at the State Fair.

Oh, are those for the kids?  

Sounds to me as though maybe you got the worst pin position you've seen, given the maintenance meld, rather than the worst green.

[ForkaB]

Rick

Front pins are often the hardest (or as Cat Stevens once said--"the first cut the deepest....").  Top shelf at #4 Spyglass is a gut check.

[ChipOat]

Rick Shefchick, Dan Kelly and John Conley:

I live in Manhattan.  What's a gunny sack and what's a State Fair?

[Dan Kelly]

Rick Shefchick, Dan Kelly and John Conley:

I live in Manhattan.  What's a gunny sack and what's a State Fair?

Come out here the 10 days before Labor Day -- and you can see The Great Minnesota Get-Together with your own (disbelieving) eyes!

Our State Fair is the best State Fair / It's the best State Fair in our state!

Forget the gunny sacks (burlap potato sacks, I think -- though it's been a few years).

The highlight of our State Fair is in the very far corner of the Empire Commons building, just past the long lines where the farm kids working for the American Dairy Assn. serve their malts and sundaes.

There, in the corner, is a refrigerated glass booth in which a round platform rotates. There, each day, sits one of the regional finalists for the coveted title Princess Kay of the Milky Way -- farm girls who compete in a pageant focusing on knowledge of the dairy industry. (Helps if they're cute, too, I suppose.) Alongside the regional dairy princess sits a sculptor, fashioning a bust of the girl ... from an 85-pound block of butter. By Fair's end, visitors can see nearly a dozen butter busts, each on its own mini-platform of honor, rotating 24/7.

I've never seen NGLA.

You've never seen a butter bust of Princess Kay.

I consider us even.

[Carlyle Rood]

I always found the photograph provided by Spyglass to be very misleading.  Much of the green is blind from the fairway, as seen above.

[JohnV]

I might like that hole location better if the area in front was cut to fairway height to allow the player to run it up.  Having it be rough and requiring the player to fly it to a location that can't be held seems pretty tough to me.