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Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2010, 10:27:17 PM »
Old Mac is Tom's best work.

Early call.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2010, 06:51:41 AM »
Old Mac is Tom's best work.

Early call.

Judge Lavin - may not be for Golfweek.  With 50+ votes on Old Mac now (or very soon) in Brad's hands, GW has a pretty stable average - certainly stable enough to numerically compare OM to the other top modern American courses.  Brad will likely know within a week of so where OM ranks against Sand Hills, Pac Dunes, etc.  Not that he'll be telling us!

JC

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2010, 07:18:50 AM »
After 10 rounds at Dunes and Pac, 5 at Trails and "2" at OM (one walking the site) here's my personal report card.  Others will differ...


Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2010, 08:25:58 AM »
Ahh Bill.  If you occasion this site there is no way you will be able to see the 4 Bandon courses without comparing them.  To you, if they are all just beautiful women, then you may consider other sites/blogs.

Remember, from the very beginning some 12+ years ago, discussing the merits and degrees of course quality was one of the fundementals and first things we talked and argued about here at gca.com.

12 years later - it ain't do different!

JC

JC,

This is definirly the site for me! I can discss the merits of courses all day long. It's just that I have always had a difficult time ranking great courses...The one I am playing at the time just always sems to jump to the top! I played Pine Valley once and "knew" it was the best course I would ever play. Unitl I played National and fell in love...Then I played Royal County Down and was absolutely stunned. I really have given up "ranking" and rather, woud just prefer to study, admire and enjoy.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2010, 09:10:07 AM »
I don't want to hijack this thread but I would like to ask which of the courses is the easiest walk and which is the toughest and would a push cart work better on some versus others? Thanks

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2010, 09:26:00 AM »
Jerry:  Bandon Dunes is the easiest walk because it's the flattest, although the green-to-tee hikes are longer than the others.  It is certainly the easiest to use the pull cart for that reason.

Bandon Trails has the reputation of being the most difficult to walk, but I think that's just because of the big hill near the end and the last few holes playing into the wind.  I think all of the other three courses are fairly even in terms of the walk.  Pacific Dunes does have one or two spots (14 tee) which are not pull-cart friendly.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2010, 09:37:26 AM »
it  is ludicrous to attempt to guess at what someone will preceive.  Then when the question is acually answered by the only person who can give the answer - it s still debated!

I would hope that both the contraints and freedoms inherent in this process would only serve to allow Tom and other architects to add the experience (both sucesses and failures - what those are, only time will tell) to the body of design work out there and build upon it.  As Tom has said, this format pushed him to do things he might not otherwise done.  Now that he has done them, will they influence future work - time will only tell.  

It is one thing to study and even play templete designs but until you have to actully utilize them in this manner (and be able to pull it off) by incorporating it into a foriegn setting, I don't think you really ever get to that nuanced level of understanding.

Therefore, since most architects hope that their 'next' design is the their best - because they have the sum of all earlier works to apply to it, I would wager that Tom's 'Best' is still to come.

Now, as to how one defines his best, that's open to intereptation.  Many, like a majority here would like to have that decided by some committee of smart people.  Me...I'll prefer to ask Tom and live with the response because only he can really know and if the masses disagree - then I guess the just don't 'get it'.
Coasting is a downhill process

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2010, 09:41:18 AM »

Tom

Don’t think of the cart just dream you are walking over the hills of God’s Country listening to heavenly music (listed below) and watch your game and disposition improve. You may even like the game of golf some day.  The music I trust will give you a little pleasure for all the fun and enjoyment you have given others over the years.

Melvyn


Angus Mckinnon Rab's Wedding The Tenth Highland Light Infantry Crossing The Rhine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50fb4k2Qvns&feature=related

Amazing Grace Gairloch The Hills Of Alva
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBVcqjFsVs&feature=related

Morag Of Dunvegam Carlin No Ruinso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0fm18PN-kc&NR=1

Lord Lovat's Lament Far 'Ore The Sea Wae's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA8loZmX-YM&feature=related

Lochiel's Welcome To Glasgow Kenmure's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voloLzub0zI&feature=related

The Green Hills Of Tyrol The Battle Is O'er
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w655V4hZVe0&feature=related

The Maiden Of Morven The Bonnie Woods
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3UEz1kBxzU&feature=related

Brigadier Cheape Armiston Castle Bessie Mcintyre
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpKt5QxoXMs&feature=related

Graigmillar Castle The Hawk That Swoops High
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epimq-8ytOU&feature=related

Scotland The Brave The Meeting Of The Waters
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q61XZZpIv0&feature=related


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2010, 11:10:39 AM »
Old Mac is Tom's best work.

Early call.

Judge Lavin - may not be for Golfweek.  With 50+ votes on Old Mac now (or very soon) in Brad's hands, GW has a pretty stable average - certainly stable enough to numerically compare OM to the other top modern American courses.  Brad will likely know within a week of so where OM ranks against Sand Hills, Pac Dunes, etc.  Not that he'll be telling us!

JC

I was just teasing my friend Paul Richards.  I really do think that it's a little to early to make the call, but it's not too early to have an opinion!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2010, 11:12:50 AM »
it  is ludicrous to attempt to guess at what someone will preceive.  

Tim:  Was this a typo or did you accidentally invent the perfect word for this discussion?

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2010, 11:35:30 AM »
it  is ludicrous to attempt to guess at what someone will preceive.  

Tim:  Was this a typo or did you accidentally invent the perfect word for this discussion?

It's all a matter of "preception", you're right, Tom.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2010, 11:40:20 AM »
Ran,

I've been thinking about this.

Wouldn't the ultimate measure of talent/greatness be, if your most recent work was considered your best work ?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2010, 11:53:59 AM »
Pat,

I think that would define Growth or Progress more than talent/greatness.

Do you know of any GCA's who could make that claim throughout their careers?

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2010, 11:59:07 AM »
Ran,

I've been thinking about this.

Wouldn't the ultimate measure of talent/greatness be, if your most recent work was considered your best work ?

That's one way to look at it, but I would guess that somebody of Doak's stature would be suspicious of this sort of sentiment, because it is way too susceptible to the passions of the moment.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #89 on: May 24, 2010, 12:17:32 PM »
Couldn't agree more Mike Young.  After playing Old Mac and going around it with Urbina it is clearly no where near as esthetically appealing a site as any of the other Bandon courses.  Pac is simply one of the top few most beautiful golf courses in the world.  Old Mac isn't even close.

Here's the rub.  People on this site represent a small portion of the 28 million US golfers who enjoy the architectural features of a golf course.  They will all rate OM highly because of the facinating landforms, angles, contours and the tip of the hat to traditional designs.  The rest of golfers will see OM as interesting but not pretty.  Those golfers will try OM once then return and stay at the other Bandon courses.

I worry that 10 years from now, especially if golf is in another downturn, OM may not even be economically sustainable.

JC



Good point.  i think Bandon Trails' ranking is due to it being on the interior land.  It's a terrific course but doesn't have the ocean front property and views.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2010, 12:22:37 PM »
Pat,

I think that would define Growth or Progress more than talent/greatness.

You must be kidding


Do you know of any GCA's who could make that claim throughout their careers?


Jim,

Since when is an architect the most obective critic of his own work ?

Unless of course they attended the Donald Trump school of public relations and promotion.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2010, 12:24:39 PM »
Forget the architects opinion, whose work would you say progressed each step of the way?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2010, 12:30:03 PM »
I really can't wait to play Old MacDonald.  I've played half a dozen MacRaynor courses and walked Chicago during the Walker Cup so I've seen how the template holes fit the terrain - really well in some cases, not so well in others, unrecognizable in a few cases.  I am eager to see how Tom Doak and his team brought those templates to life in the rugged landscape of the Oregon coast.  Yale is the only course I've played that I would really call "rugged," so I'm eager to see the new iterations.

For those who are familiar with the existing MacDonald/Raynor/Banks courses, AND have been fortunate enough to have already played Old Mac, it would be interesting to see a thread discussing how the new holes compare to their counterparts.

Or should I just wait until I get there next year?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #93 on: May 24, 2010, 12:38:28 PM »
I really can't wait to play Old MacDonald.  I've played half a dozen MacRaynor courses and walked Chicago during the Walker Cup so I've seen how the template holes fit the terrain - really well in some cases, not so well in others, unrecognizable in a few cases.  I am eager to see how Tom Doak and his team brought those templates to life in the rugged landscape of the Oregon coast.  Yale is the only course I've played that I would really call "rugged," so I'm eager to see the new iterations.

For those who are familiar with the existing MacDonald/Raynor/Banks courses, AND have been fortunate enough to have already played Old Mac, it would be interesting to see a thread discussing how the new holes compare to their counterparts.

Or should I just wait until I get there next year?

Bill:

This would be an excellent subject for a different thread or threads -- and much more productive than the current discussion started by our Dear Leader.

However, don't be offended if I do not participate in a separate thread, at least for a few days.  At the current rate I will be so sick of Old Macdonald by the time of the Grand Opening I might not even go!  I am really looking forward to being able to change the subject soon.

Mike Cirba

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #94 on: May 24, 2010, 12:40:40 PM »
Old Macdonald is the one course where I'm specifically trying NOT to read a damn thing about prior to someday visiting.   Rather than try and keep up here, I just tacked my reply to the end.

In a perfect world, I'd like to play it without even knowing who designed it, or any of the history, but that's of course impossible.

Still, the hype on this one is huge, and I can see based simply on the volume of activity on this and related threads that the preception is strong indeed with this one.  


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #95 on: May 24, 2010, 12:59:23 PM »
Ran,

I've been thinking about this.

Wouldn't the ultimate measure of talent/greatness be, if your most recent work was considered your best work ?

That's one way to look at it, but I would guess that somebody of Doak's stature would be suspicious of this sort of sentiment, because it is way too susceptible to the passions of the moment.

Terry:

Yes, I would be very suspicious of that sort of evaluation.  There are a couple of architects working now that, every time they open a new course, their fans exclaim that it's even better than their last work!  The only way you can do that for very long is if your early work was vastly overrated.

There is an unfortunate Bell Curve for acclaim in the golf design business.  Early in your career, even if you build something terrific and original, it's hard to get the credit you deserve.  Then, once you've achieved commercial success, you can do no wrong.  But then you get to Step 3, when people perceive that you're coasting or letting your associates do most of the creative stuff, because you've got nothing left.

The unfortunate part of that is that nearly everyone's work is "preceived" to lie somewhere on that curve, no matter the quality of the work they are doing or who else is involved or the underlying potential of the various sites.

I believe that I'm bringing the same effort and determination and skill to each job that I always have.  But, my learning curve has certainly flattened over the last ten years as opposed to the previous ten; so I think the differences between my projects have more to do with the site and the client and the associate and the shapers, than they do with me.

I am determined not to use the same lineup of players twice ... so, for example, Ballyneal and Rock Creek and Old Macdonald [three of my most highly acclaimed recent projects] had three very different teams.  In fact, three different guys ran those jobs -- Bruce, Eric, and Jim -- and the shaping crews were almost entirely different, although Bruce and Eric did a bit of the shaping at the two jobs they didn't run, and Brian Slawnik and Jonathan Reisetter spent a fair amount of time on all three, and Kye Goalby spent a lot of time on the first two.  From that perspective, though, I hate it when people from outside try to assess who did a better job, because they really don't know who did what out there.  

Jim Urbina has certainly gotten a lot of attention for Old Macdonald, and deservedly so, but he would be the first to tell you that a lot of other people had a share in its success, including many who don't get a design credit.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #96 on: May 24, 2010, 01:02:43 PM »
I really can't wait to play Old MacDonald.  I've played half a dozen MacRaynor courses and walked Chicago during the Walker Cup so I've seen how the template holes fit the terrain - really well in some cases, not so well in others, unrecognizable in a few cases.  I am eager to see how Tom Doak and his team brought those templates to life in the rugged landscape of the Oregon coast.  Yale is the only course I've played that I would really call "rugged," so I'm eager to see the new iterations.

For those who are familiar with the existing MacDonald/Raynor/Banks courses, AND have been fortunate enough to have already played Old Mac, it would be interesting to see a thread discussing how the new holes compare to their counterparts.

Or should I just wait until I get there next year?

Bill:

This would be an excellent subject for a different thread or threads -- and much more productive than the current discussion started by our Dear Leader.

However, don't be offended if I do not participate in a separate thread, at least for a few days.  At the current rate I will be so sick of Old Macdonald by the time of the Grand Opening I might not even go!  I am really looking forward to being able to change the subject soon.

Understood!  Perhaps in the next couple of weeks after official opening, someone who fits my criteria above will chime in!

Peter Pallotta

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #97 on: May 24, 2010, 01:12:02 PM »
Tom - really good last couple of posts (and I'm glad you got my joke earlier). This reminds me of the way actor Glen Ford described the arc of his career:

1 - Who's Glen Ford?

2 - Get me Glen Ford.

3 - Get me a Glen Ford type.

4 - Get me a young Glen Ford.

5 - Who's Glen Ford?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #98 on: May 24, 2010, 02:09:27 PM »
 :D

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #99 on: May 24, 2010, 03:00:44 PM »
At the current rate I will be so sick of Old Macdonald by the time of the Grand Opening I might not even go! 

I'm sick of it already (all the hype and the expectations.)  But I certainly look forward to playing it.  I need to ignore these threads (and related ones) so the expectations don't keep rising through the roof. One of the reasons I enjoyed Bandon Dunes was because I had lower expectations than the other two courses.

I haven't seen this much hype since LeBron was in high school.