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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
I ask because Yancey Beamer is the ~ fifteenth person to call stating that Old Mac is the best modern course he has ever played. As ridiculous as it sounds, early reports are that men of sound mind and strong virtue prefer Old Mac to Pac Dunes by a 3 to 1 margin.  :o Is that tantamount to saying that Doak's own original work is inherently inferior to that of Macdonald's? Forget Coore & Crenshaw, why is a dead architect's design philospohy showing up Tom's so badly?

At this mid point in his career, Doak has had the opportunity to work with some outstanding pieces of property, many of which were unfettered by outside constraints such as homes, etc. He has NOT sloughed off on the opportunity either, delivering anywhere from four to eight of the world top 100 courses. At Old Mac, once the gorse was cleared and the landforms emerged, it became clear that it too was indeed a very special piece of land, so yes, a superior course should have followed (especially given the Ken Nice factor) - and apparently it did! Yet, Tom has worked on other sandy ground of comparable merit so the question begs to be asked: Why don't his own interpretations of classic design principles stack up against the more overt copies to which Macdonald adhered?

Of course, quietly, maybe Tom's own work DOES measure up. For instance, even the staunchest member of Woking might not argue too loudly of the merits of their 3rd green complex over that of Tom's work at the 8th at Pac Dunes.

Yet, still....should Tom have been staying closer to Macdonald's design principles all along? After all, one might argue that even a weak-ish Redan like his one at High Pointe is better than no Redan at all. (As an aside, looking around the mediocre golf that surrounds me in Southern Pines/Pinehurst, why aren't lesser, hapless architects FORCED to work with George Bahto and pick from the 20-30 design principles as vetted by Macdonald/Raynor? A bad Road Hole would be a welcome relief from the sheer tedium of soulless holes that abound here).

Tom certainly knew and appreciated all the classic principles most often embraced by Macdonald/Raynor but often eschewed them in favor of looser interpretations or something different. Tom might argue that golf course architecture as a subject is better off for superb original holes like the 13th at High Pointe but, given these early reviews from Bandon, would golfers have delighted even more if all of Tom's designs had an Eden and a Bottle and a Leven and a ...? What say you?  What lessons might take Tom take away from these rave reviews? Will they serve as a point of frustration, confusion or pride?

I ask in part because Tom has always pooh-poohed the notion of template holes, so it is ironic to find ourselves in this position with the opening of Old Mac less than ten days away. One thing is for sure: To his great credit, Tom is definitely the only architect that I know where runaway success on a project might might make him grumpy and sullen! 8)

Cheers,

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2010, 07:48:30 AM »
I'm guessing this thread has a lot to do with the Hickory match between you two.  :)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2010, 08:01:46 AM »
Ran,

When you ask, "Is that tantamount to saying that Doak's own original work is inherently inferior to that of Macdonald's?" you are implying that CBM's work WAS original rather than designs based upon the philosophy of using templates of OTHER people's work, for isn't that what CBM often did? And aren't a number of the holes at Old Macdonald based upon CBM's INTERPRETATIONS of what had been done before?

Aren't you really asking whether the design philosophies of the old world of old course design are superior to those of modern day architects? From that perspective, aren't you in effect demeaning the work done by CBM, Raynor and other brilliant architects of the "Golden Age" whose work was so directly affected by and copied from those who had come before?

If I was Doak I would be thrilled to have any course be considered my "greatest work" especially when one consider's the resume of designs that he has out there. That it is a course inspired by the work of someone else whose work was inspired by others is meaningless because it wasn't CBM's or anyone else's vision that looked at the land and pictured holes where none existed...


John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2010, 08:09:20 AM »
Someone actually asked THE question.  It should make for great discussion - perhaps even a better understanding of what CBM's "templates" really were.  I hope Old Mac is as good as the early reports, but also could see where enthusiasm for the new course might influence the comparison.  

The other aspect worth discussion is the impact of collaboration on the design.  

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2010, 08:12:15 AM »
Ran,
Did Tom and Jim copy the "old world" templates exactly or did they add their own, critical touches?  I suspect the answer is the latter, rendering the argument moot.  This is not CBM or any other ODG's work; this is the work of Tom and Jim and it is to be recognized as such.  Imagine a still life painting:  fruit is fruit, but the eye of the artist makes the difference.  Do any of the renaissance-era fruit growers claim superiority because their apples and pears (and whatever other consumables might appear on the plate) look nicer than modern day fruit used in still life?  No...mainly because they are dead.

As such, let us not trifle with rankings.  Without Pac Dunes, Old Mac would not exist in its form, as Tom and Jim would not have learned lessons from the first site.  In the same vein, Pac Dunes would not exist without other, prior courses.

We shepherds, errr, teachers and coaches, like to tell our students that they are much more fortunate than their predecessors.  Why? ask they...because we erred with and learned from their predecessors, making us better at what we do today.  

I think that Tom and Jim and all other archies would be quite insulted if told that their best work is behind them.  If they go into their next sites hoping to come close to a previous effort, then either the site is quite inferior or the archie has lost her/his edge.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2010, 08:15:51 AM »
Interesting point John.  How many of the top 10ish courses are collaborations?  Certainly Pine Valley had lots of input, Merion, Oakmont, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point.  Seems like many of the best ha multiple minds working on them atone point or another in their design.  Is GCA greatness unattainable as a solo effort?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Anthony Gray

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2010, 08:31:23 AM »


   Looks like the resume will be large enough that you just can't pick one. Apples to oranges.

    Anthony



 

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2010, 08:56:47 AM »
I can only remember the 9th hole at Yale, a great Barritz, and trying to talk our club into copying it during our extensive renovation. I was critized for suggesting we copy something. The architect just thru the idea under the bus.

Maybe other clubs in the future can learn something from Old MacDonald as well as other architects who build ordinary holes when they could build something special for golfers.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2010, 09:20:06 AM »
Ran, I read your post envisioning your tongue planted firmly in cheek....

I think the boys took great risk by openly stating they were paying homage to Macdonald.  Though a complete stinker was likely never possible, anything short of really, really good would be open to vast criticism.  "Tribute" courses are easy to pick on and in fact it's an accomplishment that they're able to get past that stigma so quickly.  Looking forward to seeing it in the future.

Dale_McCallon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2010, 09:36:51 AM »
Ran,
I think your sample size of men of sound virtue may be skewed.  Assuming these are the particpants of the recent Bandon trip, one must remember this is the type crowd that eats this stuff up.  I know several people who would gladly play a "souless" hole than an alps..too unfair.


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2010, 09:51:07 AM »
I assume the supposition is forward looking-i.e. in 10 years after the initial euphoria has waned and Old Mac is indeed considered with the benefit of time to be his best design...Again it's a bit premature to hand OM the crown PRE OPENING...I can't wait to play it and I'm sure it's quite good, but any number of Buzz Courses have been considered the best thing since sliced bread only to slowly fade down the ratings lists over time...I'm not saying it's overhyped, I have yet to see the course, but only time will tell it's true merit.  We already know Pac Dunes'....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Anthony Gray

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2010, 09:57:42 AM »


  Ran did you check with yourself before starting this thread?

  Anthony


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2010, 10:01:17 AM »


  Ran did you check with yourself before starting this thread?

  Anthony



It better be a great course with a name like that ::) ::) ::) ;D :o
Normally I hate any course name with the word "Old" (esp. "Olde") that's not old, but it is  clever ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2010, 11:53:23 AM »

We certainly did have more leverage to be bigger and bolder.  I am not sure that if Jim or I had been designing the course on our own, that Mr. Keiser would have let us build features like the Beardies bunkers on #6, or the blind shot over the Alps, or many of the contours in the greens, fearing that they would make it too frustrating for the retail golfer.  But, with historical precedent on our side, and a whole committee of guys exhorting us to make it bigger and bolder, Mike went along with all of that.  [The only question now is whether he lets the superintendent use all of the cool hole locations ... there are a few great ones which he thinks are too severe.]

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2010, 12:20:23 PM »
Ran,

When you ask, "Is that tantamount to saying that Doak's own original work is inherently inferior to that of Macdonald's?" you are implying that CBM's work WAS original rather than designs based upon the philosophy of using templates of OTHER people's work, for isn't that what CBM often did? And aren't a number of the holes at Old Macdonald based upon CBM's INTERPRETATIONS of what had been done before?

Aren't you really asking whether the design philosophies of the old world of old course design are superior to those of modern day architects? From that perspective, aren't you in effect demeaning the work done by CBM, Raynor and other brilliant architects of the "Golden Age" whose work was so directly affected by and copied from those who had come before?

If I was Doak I would be thrilled to have any course be considered my "greatest work" especially when one consider's the resume of designs that he has out there. That it is a course inspired by the work of someone else whose work was inspired by others is meaningless because it wasn't CBM's or anyone else's vision that looked at the land and pictured holes where none existed...



I read an article in a 1914 edition of Golfing Magazine (UK) supposedly written by an American which rubbished CBM's attempts at replicating the great holes from the UK. It gave him credit for creating the hardest course in the world but claimed that he had merely created crude land forms which missed the nuances of the originals (my wording). So that begs the question of how good was CBM ? Given that Tom has seen and studied the same original holes perhaps it could be said that his interpretations of the originals are better than CBM and therefore in comparison to NGLA, an accepted classic, he has come up trumps. That would immediately give his new course cudos that his previous ones didn't have.

Does anyone follow my convoluted reasoning ?

Niall

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2010, 12:28:16 PM »
Ran,

I think there are olde design principles which are worthy of replication.
I also think there's a need for creativity in the form of originality.

Tom has blended both.

In addition, there are offshoot versions of olde design principles that Tom's already incorporated into his designs.
# 17 at PD would seem to be one.

Should Tom be viewed in the same light that CBM was viewed when he took the best holes/principles from the UK and imported them to the U.S, and improved on them ?

Maybe your question is akin the response given by Mao Tse Tung when he was asked to comment on the influence of the French Revolution, and he replied: "it's too early to tell" ;D

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2010, 12:28:40 PM »
One thing is for sure: To his great credit, Tom is definitely the only architect that I know where runaway success on a project might might make him grumpy and sullen! 8)

Cheers,
Closest analogy–Trying to get Mitt Romney talking about his term as governor of Massachusetts while he's running in a Republican presidential primary...
Next!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2010, 12:41:45 PM »


Should Tom be viewed in the same light that CBM was viewed when he took the best holes/principles from the UK and imported them to the U.S, and improved on them ?



Pat

I think I broadly agree with your post but would question the point you made above. Did CBM actually improve on the originals ? I ask that never having played the course (NGLA) and based only on a contemporary account of the course as mentioned in my earlier post.

Niall

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2010, 12:50:40 PM »
I think the answer is rooted in the name Doak and perhaps with his early associates chose for their firm, "Renaissance Design".  I think it was supreme confidence in what he knew would be his team's abilities, and a declaration that he and his firm's philosophy would follow the artistic process we associate with the art and artists disciplines in the real Renaissance.  (Maybe that is too sychophantish...  ::) :-\ )

But, I'd say his career starting with his education and then study of the old and new masters, including his young brash criticisms of practioners in the field mimics the path that most of the Renaissance artists followed. 

And, it is well documented how they grumbled.  They grumbled at the work of others, yet studied and built their interpretations on those same gumbled upon previous masters.  They grumbled at their patrons who didn't understand them, and didn't give them carte blanche freedom to do what they pleased.  The grumbled at their early work and tauted their latest work. 

Artists grumble.  You just can't stop'em from grumbling about one thing or another.

I"m confident Doak will grumble that no one "gets it really".  I hope he keeps grumbling and inspired to show the world on his next project,  that we rubes are still missing the point in our comments and critique of his last work.  I'm certain from my short meetings with him that he has enough grumble in him to keep him going a long time.  ;) ;D 8)

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2010, 01:09:39 PM »
Ran,

When you ask, "Is that tantamount to saying that Doak's own original work is inherently inferior to that of Macdonald's?" you are implying that CBM's work WAS original rather than designs based upon the philosophy of using templates of OTHER people's work, for isn't that what CBM often did? And aren't a number of the holes at Old Macdonald based upon CBM's INTERPRETATIONS of what had been done before?

Aren't you really asking whether the design philosophies of the old world of old course design are superior to those of modern day architects? From that perspective, aren't you in effect demeaning the work done by CBM, Raynor and other brilliant architects of the "Golden Age" whose work was so directly affected by and copied from those who had come before?

If I was Doak I would be thrilled to have any course be considered my "greatest work" especially when one consider's the resume of designs that he has out there. That it is a course inspired by the work of someone else whose work was inspired by others is meaningless because it wasn't CBM's or anyone else's vision that looked at the land and pictured holes where none existed...



I read an article in a 1914 edition of Golfing Magazine (UK) supposedly written by an American which rubbished CBM's attempts at replicating the great holes from the UK. It gave him credit for creating the hardest course in the world but claimed that he had merely created crude land forms which missed the nuances of the originals (my wording). So that begs the question of how good was CBM ? Given that Tom has seen and studied the same original holes perhaps it could be said that his interpretations of the originals are better than CBM and therefore in comparison to NGLA, an accepted classic, he has come up trumps. That would immediately give his new course cudos that his previous ones didn't have.

Does anyone follow my convoluted reasoning ?

Niall

Niall

I take yours and Phil's point.  By honouring CBM Doak is really honouring the great architecture that existed before the explosion of heathland and modern golf design.  CBM was surely a part of that modern movement even if he is somehow pictured as one with a leg in both eras.  What I find really interesting is that this template concept is at least to some degree a homage to TOC and as Dick points out, the name of Doak's firm points to the direction he seeks for inspiration. 

Will Doak grumble - sure.  He is always having some sort of dig or other about the flotsam and jetsom of golf and where it is heading.  I think he has earned the right to kick a cat or two.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Wade Schueneman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2010, 01:56:47 PM »
It seems to me that there may be a bit of confusion about the point that (I think) Ran is making.  I do not think that anyone doubts that Mr. Doak has tremendous knowledge of the world's great golf holes and readily incoporates design strategies gleaned from those holes when he deems it advisable (in light of a host of considerations including the owner's instructions, terrain, maintenance concerns, budget, course rythm . . .).  However, I think that Mr. Doak (based on his comments on this site, in interviews, and in his books) likes to search a new property for its most interesting features and then tailor holes that exploit those features.  The result seems to generally be original holes that incorporate design strategies gleaned from great golf courses.  One might look at the 7th hole at PD and remark that the way the left bunker cuts right up to the green reminds one of Royal Melbourne.  However, the 7t is not based on any hole at Royal Melbourne.  In contrast, when CBM built the 7th at National he was trying to recreate a template hole.  So, I think that what Ran is saying is that Doak normally gleans ideas from great holes, but does not try to copy them.  This may or may not be correct; you would have to ask Mr. Doak.  What makes this a great thread, in my estimation, is the suggestion that an architectural genius like Mr. Doak produced his best course (and on land that probably isn't as good as the land that Barnbougle, Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal occupy) when his hands were, to a certain degree, tied.  A year ago had anybody told me that Bill Coore would have built a better course at Sand Hills had he been restricted by templates on many of the holes I would have laughed.

I hope that Mr. Doak will chime in.  I suspect that to a certain degree my ignore certain lurking variables.  Perhaps Mr. Urbina and Mr. Doak produced such a great course, not because they were semi-restricted by templates, but because they were given unparalleled freedom to be big and bold by an owner who had amazing confidence in the creative judgment of his team of architects.  If he does chime in, I hope that he will answer a loosely related question.  Why wasn't the opener at the National used at Old Mac?  That hole makes my world top 18.

Great topic Ran.       

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2010, 02:12:44 PM »
I think TD knew this question would come up, when he started this thread december 2008...

The irony of Old Macdonald
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37876.msg782493/

(especially in post no. 60)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 02:15:44 PM by Cristian Willaert »

John Moore II

Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2010, 02:45:11 PM »
So, on this same line of thinking, should NGLA not be viewed as CMB's best course because he copied holes from elsewhere? I wouldn't know, I've never played there. Just because Mr. Doak used some of the same design principles as someone else, many princples of which he likely used all ready, does not mean that the work is not his. He put that course on the land, he figured out where each hole fit best and he did everything else involved (of course his partners did work, but you get the idea). This course was designed by Mr. Doak, not someone who died 75 odd years ago. (Unless of course there was some preexisting CBM routing of a course in Bandon that we don't know about.  ::))

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2010, 04:11:03 PM »
I won't presume to know what Tom Doak is thinking, what will please him, and what will make him grumble.  However, in my view he would have every right to be upset if Old Mac is regarded as his best course.

With his previous courses, he always had the option "do what CBM would have done."  He could have built alps, redan, biarritz, etc. on every course, but he didn't.  Presumably, this is because he thought that the uniqueness of the land provided the opportunity to build better holes.  With OM, he was constrained.  He had to find the template holes on the property and build around those.  This suggests to me that Old Macdonald although a fun concept is not the best course that he otherwise would have built on the property. 

He has said that CBM's historical precedent allowed him to take risks he otherwise could not have justified.  Additionally, he might say that the inspiration of CBM came through and allowed him to build a better course than he otherwise would have.  However, I don't buy that these benefits could possibly outweigh the constraint of having to design as CBM would have and having to find template holes on the property. 

Let's assume that Pacific Dunes is in his mind the best course he could have built with the property.  Then, with OM, he is instructed not to build what he thinks is the best course.  Rather, he is instructed to build as CBM would have.  If it turns out that everyone like the latter over the former (or 75% of them prefer it) it's kind of a slam.  Someone as talented as Tom Doak doesn't need those kind of instructions, and they might restrict him from building even better, more original, and more imaginative holes.

I'm sure OM is a great course, and I can't wait to play it.  But I have a hard time believing that it's better than the counterfactual course that would have been built if Keiser had told Doak and Urbina to build the best possible course on the property.         

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2010, 04:15:10 PM »
Another quick thought:

Perhaps building template holes is one way that architects compete with one another.  It seems fun for architects to all build the same general type of hole with the same strategic considerations, trying to out-do one another by making slightly different finishing touches.  This is comparable to every comedian telling "The Aristocrats" joke and trying to one-up each other.

All this could be great for comedy and golf architecture, but Robin Williams would probably be offended if people thought his best joke was "The Aristocrats."  Similarly, Doak would have the right to be offended if people think his best course is Old Macdonald.