How do the

[Patrick_Mucci]

course rating systems differ for Golf Digest, GolfWeekly and Golf Magazine ?

If you're a rater, which magazine do you rate for ?

If the rating systems differ are there any substantive differences in the results ?

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I find it mildly confusing when one refers to the magazine course "reviewers“ as Golf Course Raters. As I understand it a Golf Course Rater has been appointed by the USGA or their countries golf association to measure the golf course for the purpose of computing the USGA Course and Slope Rating, with all the associated responsibilities and adherence to their regulations.

What exactly do the Magazine “raters” do - shouldn’t we call them something else other than raters?

Confused

[Willie_Dow]

JC-S concur with your observation.  Pat, with your expertness at going after these types, let's change their moniker !

[Andy Troeger]

Golf Digest calls us panelists. That might be the better word. Unfortunately we still call the "review" a rating--so I don't have a good substitute for that. I suppose you could call them ballots, but anyway...

I think there are major differences just in the criteria used in the ratings. When rating for Golf Digest, the currently used categories are shot values, resistance to scoring, design variety, memorability, aesthetics, conditioning, and ambiance. Previous categories include playability and walkability. Compare that to GolfWeek (which perhaps one of their panelists/raters could post) and it becomes rather evident that some courses will do better with one set of criteria than the other.

Just as an example, take resistance to scoring--I think that category creates some challenges for "easier" great courses when rated by Golf Digest. Regardless of which course you might "like" better--Butler National is stronger than Shoreacres in that particular category. I don't believe the other magazines take that into account, so that's one difference already.

I do my own personal listing of courses roughly based on the GD system and get different rankings just by changing the weighting and adding a "FUN" category. I have to believe that changing the categories entirely would also yield different results, even if I were still the one doing the rating!

[Patrick_Mucci]

JCS & WD,

The magazines use a numerical merit system to determine a value , thus they're rating the golf course and my description will remain.

Anyone who doesn't understand the difference between the magazine ratings and slope ratings doesn't belong on this site.

Please, stick to the issue/s raised by this thread

[TEPaul]

"Please, stick to the issue/s raised by this thread."


Patrick:

OK, I will stick to the issue/s raised by you on this thread, and I will consequently ask you if it is true that when you see what you consider to be a great golf hole or a great golf course you visualize a beautiful naked woman to some degree and how to numerically rate either-----eg such as on a scale of 1 to 10?

For the time being we can leave the issue of whether you get sexually aroused by a great golf hole or a great golf course for another time.

[David_Madison]

I'm a Golf Digest panelist. My sense is that GD stresses two different areas. The first is the part about getting the ball around the course, with shot values, difficulty, and hole variety being the criteria there. The other broad category is the experience of playing, with memorability, ambiance, esthetics, and conditioning being evaluated. As Andy indicated, "fun" per se is not evaluated, nor is "quirk" or my desire to play the course over and over again. These are important to me as a player evaluating my own experience of playing a course, but I'm not sure that the GD system really captures those elements. Golf Magazine's system would, as I believe the raters simply give each course one overall score, and the raters could incorporate any factors he finds appropriate that relate to the course. 

[John Chilver-Stainer]

The panelists Andy and David have provided a first rate answer - and Patrick’s - it was just berating ……

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Madison & Andy Troeger,

It would be helpful if we could get the criteria for each magazine listed so that we could make a side by side comparison.

Then after examining the respective criteria, we could see if there's an anomaly or if the three magazines are pretty much in harmony.

TEPaul,

I think of and visualize beautiful naked women 24/7 and don't need a great golf hole or great golf course to assist me in that process.

Don't forget you have a date on June 9th.

[Mac Plumart]

Hey Pat...

I've spent a lot of time on things like this and have done analysis as well.

Here is a list of courses ranked in the Top 100 in the US by one and only one of the Big 3 golf rating entities.  To reconcile Golfweek's two top 100 lists I used a composite Golfweek Top 100 list (of course there are issues with this, but I did it anyway).

Here are the courses listed in the Top 100 by one and only one entity...

Golf Digest's list...

Canyata
The Quarry at La Quinta
Rich Harvest Links
Eagle Pointe
Sahalee
Tullymore
Sycamore Hills
Sage Valley


Golf Magazine's List...

Nanea
Bellerive
Torrey Pines
Mauna Kea
Trump International


Golfweek's List...

Wannamoisett
Kingsley Club
Colorado
Dunes Club
Wild Horse
Holston Hills
Bayonne
Cuscowilla
Paa-Ko Ridge
Homestead (Cascades)
Proghorn (Fazio)
Fallen Oaks
California Golf Club
Gozzer Ranch


Being the geek that I am I have a lot more data, I can pretty much pull out any information you would like to see...if it helps with the discussion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mac,

Which Trump course is that ?

Also, what courses do all three magazines put in their top 100 and could you list the number for each magazine with the course.

Thanks

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
I'm pretty sure GOLF Mag doesn't have critieria--raters can base things on whatever they deem important.

GolfWeek's criteria are listed on the following article:
http://www.golfweek.com/news/2010/may/20/raters-notebook-old-american-gc/

The only common category between Digest and GolfWeek appears to be conditioning. But, my understanding is that GW raters can give an overall score that is not an average of their category scores, so that's another difference. Three very different processes, which explains a fair variety in the results.

[Mac Plumart]

Golf Mag.                     
World Rank   US            Golf Digest US Rank      GW Top 100
                     
1   1   Pine Valley                         2      1
2   2   Cypress Point         4      2
6   4   Shinnecock Hills         3      5
3   3   Augusta National          1      11
8   6   Oakmont                        5      8
7   5   Pebble Beach         6      10
10   7   Merion                        7      7
11   8   Sand Hills                        13      3
12   9   Nat'l Golf Links         15      6
16   10   Pacific Dunes         14      4
20   12   Crystal Downs         16      9
21   13   Seminole                         10      17
23   14   Winged Foot West         8      19
24   15   Chicago                         12      15
31   20   Fishers Island         9      12
25   16   Praire Dunes         21      16
19   11   Pinehurst #2         32      18
28   18   Oakland Hills         17      27
26   17   San Francisco         35      14
40   24   Whisting Straits/Straits         22      13
37   23   The Country Club         18      33
35   22   Bethpage Black         29      29
30   19   Riveria                         31      36
46   26   Muirfield Village         19      30
41   25   Olympic Lake         26      35
47   27   Kiawah Ocean Course         25      42
58   33   Bandon Dunes         33      20
59   34   The Golf Club         35      23
57   32   Oak Hill East         11      56
51   30   Garden City Golf Club         53      28
52   31   Los Angeles         47      34
50   29   TPC Sawgrass         45      41
49   28   Baltusrol (lower)         30      58
60   35   Southern Hills         34      38
68   40   Inverness                         40      59
67   39   Winged Foot (east)         65      55
90   49   Spyglass Hill                          51      39
71   43   Shoreacres                         74      43
65   37   Maidstone                          86      49
70   42   Quaker Ridge         81      60
79   47   Somerset                          88      46
73   44   Harbour Town         75      74
96   50   Scioto                                                       61      88


Okay...the formating might be messed up a little.  But here is a list of course ranked in the Golf Mag world top 100, Golf Mag US top 100, Golf Digest Top 100 and the composite Golfweek Top 100 along with the corresponding ranking.  As an FYI, they are listed in numerical order in terms of aggregate ranking.  For instance, averaging all the raters rankings Pine Valley is the best course in the US followed by Cypress, etc.

Running to dinner.  Be back later.

[David_Madison]

Patrick,

It seems that the core difference between Golf Digest and the other two is that Golf Digest is more proscriptive or defined in its approach. Golf Magazine raters can evaluate courses on whatever criteria they see fit, and GolfWeek's criteria leave lots more room than do GD's for roaming and personal tastes.

I suspect that the courses listed by Mac Plumart that appear only on one magazine's list are likely at the tail end of each magazine's respective lists. It just doesn't take much to bounce around in the ratings once you get towards the tail end of the top 100. If I'm remembering my numbers correctly, the difference in score in GD's rankings between the #10 course and #30, for example, is much greater than it is between a #60 and a #90. And the difference between a #99 and a #200 is even smaller.

Notwithstanding the above, perhaps most telling in evaluating the results of the differences in criteria would be if we could identify those courses that are in the #75 - #100 bucket in one magazine but not even in the top 200 in another.

[Mac Plumart]

David...good points.  For some extra information, here are those courses listed by one and only one entity and their respective ranking...


Golfweek...

Kingsley Club                         50
Colorado Golf Club                        54
Dunes                        63
Wannamoisette                        44
Wildhorse                        67
bayonne                         62
Cuscowilla                        98
Paa-Ko Ridge                        93
Homestead (Cascades)                     89
Proghorn                        87
Holston Hills                     95
Fallen Oaks                        92
California Golf Club                        97
Gozzer Ranch                        85


Golf Digest...

Canyata         42
The Quary at La Quinta      44
Rich Harvest Links         46
Eagle Pointe         83
Sahalee                                      84
Sage Valley               87
Tullymore               90
Sycamore Hills               93



Golf Mag...

68   Torrey Pines
75   Trump International
79   Bellerive   
87   cog hill
100   Mauna Kea

[Andy Troeger]

Interesting to see that list, Mac. My reaction without knowing the courses would have been that most of the courses that only make one list probably don't belong. However, of the ones you've posted I think Kingsley Club, Gozzer Ranch, Cuscowilla, Paa-Ko Ridge and Tullymore are worthy. I admittedly tend to think Paa-Ko and Tullymore are personal preferences on my part though.

Just as interesting are the courses that make two of the three lists and which list they do not make. A lot of courses fall into that range.

Mac--I assume your lists for Golf Digest and Golf Magazine only include courses that are not on the GW lists at all? Valhalla, Sanctuary, Shoal Creek, The Concession, and Jupiter Hills all make the second half of the GW Top 100 Modern but wouldn't make a composite list. Flint Hills National belongs on the "GD only" list now too.

[Mac Plumart]

Andy...yes, you are correct.  Those courses listed in the Golf Digest and Golf Mag. show up on no GW list at all.  And yes, I think I messed up and Flint Hills National should be on the GD only list.  Good pick up!

[Andy Troeger]

Mac,
Hudson National (94) would be another from Digest.

[Ronald Montesano]

My question is, why hasn't Mac been snapped up by one of these panels?

[Mac Plumart]

Ron...I am a newbie to the Golfweek rater's panel.  Trying to do the best I can for them and I am sure pestering some too much with question on areas I need some guidance on!!

[Mac Plumart]

Andy...thanks.

I'm thinking Grandfather might need to be on that list as well.  I'll check it out later today.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Rater's panel, is as useful as a fart in a Spacesuit. Perhaps the fart may even generate more amusement than the Raters list.

My opinion is based upon one mans meat is another’s poison, seem appropriate when talking about farts too.

Melvyn

[Mac Plumart]

Melvyn...flattery will get you nowhere!   

[Joe Hancock]

Melvyn...flattery will get you nowhere!   

Flattuary......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mac, David & Andy,

Thanks for the response.

Could you each list the respective categories, in a numerical sequence, so that we can see what the categories are, which are similar and which are unique.

Thanks