[Mike Cirba]

Is it possible that the 2nd P&P exists today but under a different name?

I know there are a few short courses down along the southern shore, and if any of them were re-named for a highway commissioner or something like that we may be looking in the wrong place.

[Neil_Crafter]

Mike
As far as my searching could tell there is only one P&P at Jones beach today, but it is possible there is another but I am unaware of it. Any NYC GCAer out there who might know? It seems pretty clear from Trost's mention of it that Mac's P&P course was at Jones beach.

[Gene Greco]

Is it possible that the 2nd P&P exists today but under a different name?

I know there are a few short courses down along the southern shore, and if any of them were re-named for a highway commissioner or something like that we may be looking in the wrong place.

Cedar Beach Pitch and Putt is part of Robert Moses State Park and is also on the same barrier beach as Jones Beach about 10 - 15 miles due east.

[Neil_Crafter]

That's interesting Gene. Any idea of the age of the Cedar Park course?

[Neil_Crafter]

Here are two photographs from the early thirties (Library of Congress) that show the pitch and putt course to the right of the water tower. Slightly different times as the road network behind the water tower and the right side car park is different from one to the other. I assume the top photo is the earliest and the bottom one later from the buildings and the road network. And wasn't the beach popular!

Certainly shows some interesting bunkering on the pitch and putt course, especially compared with what it has become today. And a dunesy character. Also a postcard from ca1960 that showed the dunesy character still in evidence.

I wonder whether this could have been the Mackenzie course, or whether this is the Burbeck course? Don't know.

[Mike Cirba]

Very cool, Neil.   It does look like great fun, especially lying along the wind-swept beach.

Don't know which that one is either.   

Paging Dr. Greco...

[Phil_the_Author]

That is the Burbeck course...

[Neil_Crafter]

Phil
if it is the Burbeck course (and my gut feeling tells me it is) then in its original iteration with lots of sand and bunkers must have been a fun little course. Could I ask why you are certain that it is? 

Mike, yes looks fantastic and would have been great to play back then. Potential for a restoration? Given its current haggard near abandoned state as seen in the recent Google aerial posted earlier, it is a shame to see it now.

[Tom MacWood]

Isn't it more likely that there was one pitch-and-putt course that Mackenzie designed and Burbeck built? I may have missed, but I don't believe any of the articles claim Burbeck designed the miniature golf course.

[Mike Cirba]

Can someone remind me what Burbeck's golf credentials or background were at this time?

I have to say that the bunkering patterns look to have a degree of sophistication.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Trost's Nov 27 1931 is very clear that Mackenzie would be designing a second pitch and putt course probably at the other end of the beach to the existing one. So I am almost certain Mac was not involved in the first one as Trost says its designers basically had no golf knowledge. The plan of Jones Beach you posted with the arrows showing the various components, appears to be missing its right half - do you have the entire plan?

Mike
Yes, the bunkering displays some sophistication which is why I surmised that the one by the water tower might have been the one Mac designed. If it is indeed the Burbeck one, as Phil Young contends, then clearly there must have been some inspiration there. Perhaps he took a look around the Lido.

[Phil_the_Author]

Neil,

Take a careful look at the article you posted in reply #15. It mentions that Mackenzie would design a pitch and putt course for Jones beach but it also states that "there is one there now..."

That one that "is there now" is the one that is in the aerials and that Burbeck designed and built. It is the ONLY golf course built at Jones Beach. Almost all of the monies for park exansion from the Long island State Park Commission (which built and operated Jones Beach) during the years following this from 1930-1934 went to leasing, then purchasing and then finally building Bethpage State Park.

No regulation 18-hole golf course was ever built at Jones Beach either which makes Tom's finding of the proposed course intriguing...

[Neil_Crafter]

Philip
Your first point was exactly the one I was making to Tom, that Mackenzie's course was to be the second pitch and putt at Jones Beach.
What I am not clear about is what is the evidence that the one next to the water tower is the one designed by Burbeck.

Trost says on two separate occasions that Mackenzie had designed (past tense) a pitch and putt course on Jones Beach, in addition to the earlier mention that he would be designing (future tense) a second pitch and putt course. What makes you say that there was never another course there apart from the Burbeck one? I do know that there was never an 18 holer built at Jones Beach, despite the plans being drawn up.

[Tom MacWood]

Neil
Here are the two halves from the magazine the Architectural Record August 1931. I don't think there were two miniature courses - there was a miniature course and a executive course, which I believe was the second course. If I remember correctly that rendering of the executive course on this plan is conceptual, I don't believe the course followed that plan, although the location is correct. Have you found any reports of the second longer course being built?

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Thanks for posting the two halves of the 1931 map.
The report on Mackenzie doing a second pitch and putt was late November 1931, some time after this map was published. I wonder whether the fact that the first pitch and putt course was successful drove the desire to add a second one, one that was not envisaged in the original master plan. Seems there would have been plenty of room for a second pitch and putt course in the right half of this plan.

The label "Miniature Golf" is a bit misleading, given the accepted difference between a pitch and putt course (pitching and putting) and a miniature golf course (putting only). What makes you use the term executive course when talking about the 18 hole course shown in the right half of this plan?

[Gene Greco]

It is the ONLY golf course built at Jones Beach.

There is also a miniature golf course (putt putt) just west of the central mall.

[Tom MacWood]

The position of the miniature golf course on the map and the pitch-and putt course are the same. I think the terms are used interchangeably. Here are a series of articles between 1934 and 1947 and it appears there was just one pitch-and-putt golf course. The proposed executive golf course was never built. I remember measuring the full length holes on the proposed executive course and they averaged around 300 yds, thats why I used that term.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Thanks for those mentions. Seems there is contradictory evidence. Was Trost wrong?

[Tom MacWood]

Neil
I don't know if he was wrong or not. If we could find some other reports that either confirm (or not) what he wrote we'd have a better idea. It maybe he was just confused or got his wires crossed. The timing of the first pitch-and-putt course coincides with Bayside, thats one possibility (that he laid out the p&p around the same time). Its also possible Mackenzie remodeled the p-and-p course later in 1931. Either way it sure looks like his work. Or maybe he was going to design the longer course...which was to be at the other end of the beach....but obviously that course never got built.

[TEPaul]

Neil:

Coming from Long Island I should be able to help more with pitch and putt courses there or whatever but I can't. Just the mention of Jones Beach brings back some memories from back then but of another kind. If you lived on Long Island the idea in the summer was to completely avoid going anywhere near Jones Beach or near any of the mid island to southern island parkways. That place created the worst traffic jams for miles and miles around it of anything I've ever seen which is pretty ironic seeing as Robert Moses was considered to be really revolutionary with the planning of modern parkways and parks and recreation facilities on a massive scale.

[Gene Greco]

Tom
Trost's Nov 27 1931 is very clear that Mackenzie would be designing a second pitch and putt course probably at the other end of the beach to the existing one. So I am almost certain Mac was not involved in the first one as Trost says its designers basically had no golf knowledge. The plan of Jones Beach you posted with the arrows showing the various components, appears to be missing its right half - do you have the entire plan?

Mike
Yes, the bunkering displays some sophistication which is why I surmised that the one by the water tower might have been the one Mac designed. If it is indeed the Burbeck one, as Phil Young contends, then clearly there must have been some inspiration there. Perhaps he took a look around the Lido.

The bunkering shown in the top black and white postcard sure does display an element of sophistication and Mackenzie's style.

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