[Ed Oden]

OK, I went back through Charlie's original thread and this one and these are the only criticisms of my design that I can find:

While the contours were only a couple feet, he did loose some points for the way he handled some terrain.

Why did you put that bunker out wide on 4?  Seems like that would be an odd place to put a bunker as it completely takes away a safe play if the wind is up.

The green on 2 appears to be a bit small to divide it into four sections.

That judge loved the land you chose to route over, but did not appreciate the basically back and forth routing.

That all seems pretty tame.  Remember, I finished 9th in the voting.  So there has to be a lot more than that.  I'm not interested in what I did right.  Tell me I did wrong.  Trust me, I won't be offended.  So please pile on.

Ed

[Garland Bayley]

As I remember, one of the judges mentioned there was a danger issue with how you went straight over the steepest ups and downs.

I suggest you look at Alex's design for one using much of the same land and his locating greens in it and turning the holes around the contours.

[Ed Oden]

Garland, I pulled this quote from your post on Jim Colton's thread...

Jim, this really seems spectacular and so totally influenced by your deep affinity to Ballyneal.  So far, I'd have to say your's and Ed's are the two that really capture my attention the most.  Not to put down the others efforts and concepts.  But, it just seems to me that the concepts and reality of their vision of how this property might be in terrain and characteristics most fit with Ed's and Jims, IMHO.

...

Dick,

Here is judge Philip Spogard's input. I took this displeasure with routing over the contours was most suitably addressed to Ed's design. Do you disagree? Do you think all of Ed's blind shots directly over the contour's were a good choice? Would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Charlie,

Compliments for all the hard work you have put into this. I was amazed by the effort not only from the contestants but also from you.

As I am in the middle of moving I do not have much time these days to post individual comments to all participants - but as you know I have individual comments to each layout. I will be happy to provide individual feedback to all interested participants so please send me a PM and I will get back to you all.

My judging was mostly influenced by the individual routings and use of the land. In my opinion the ultimate solutions were the ones which naturally incoorporated all areas of interest within an 18 hole routing. With such an expansive site I looked for a layout routed among - and not over - the contours (unless well explained). Safety, interest, concept, clubhouse and facility locations, aesthetics, degree of realism, etc. were off course also important factors.

Congratulations to you all for producing such fine work - and congratulations to the winner.

Philip

Just curious, how many blind shots do you think there are on my design?  I really don't see that many.  As far as I can tell, this property is not severe and is generally very subtly contoured.  From its highest to lowest points the elevation change is just over 40 feet.  My home course, which is an old Donald Ross design on rolling land, has 4-5 holes alone with elevation changes that big and probably an equal number of blind or partially blind shots.  I have never heard anyone claim Ross' routing over our rolling terrain to be a weakness.  In fact, it is considered the course's strength.  I found it easy to look at the topo map Charlie provided and imagine far more movement in the land than I suspect there really is.  So I actually consciously tried to take advantage of as much of that movement as possible.  Of course, The Recession is all about ups and downs.

Ed

[Garland Bayley]

I'm certainly not an expert on reading topos, but it looks to me like the landing areas for the drives on 7 and 10 are blind. The landing for the second on 13 is blind, And the approach to 8 is blind. These areas of blindness are a result of going directly over the contours. That is what I felt Philip may have been referring to.

Also, notice that Philip mentions the expansiveness of the property as a reason for not needing to go directly over the contours. I believe many courses will go directly over contours because of space limitations where there may have been better choices if there was more room.

[Tim Nugent]

Just off the top of my head,  you had a disregard for playing on ridges.  I remeber the northern fairway and a par 3 that made me cringe.  Only one (or 2) tees meant you were designing for a small segment of the golfing demographic.  Some of the transitions from green-to-tee were problematic.  The small piece of fairway just off the tee, on the left side of the creek, that no one will ever use.
The green in the oxbow will probably flood, No clubhouse,range, putting green or irrigation source we also big negatives.  Too bad, because even with your many flaws, it still rated out fairly high and could have easily jumped into the top group if you would had added the items needed besides just golf holes.  If this was a college class project and I graded on a curve, you would have gotten an 81% B.
I'm sure if I wanted to, I could spend a day and pick this apart further but I tried to judge these submittals by taking into account you guys don't do this for a living and it wouldn't be civil to crush your spirit.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The green in the oxbow will probably flood, ...

I'm a bit tired of all the mentions of flooding. Flooding would be a function of the specific geographic location. The contest did not say this property was in the desert, which is subject to flash flooding which has been mentioned. The contest did not say the stream was snow melt fed that would be subject to spring flooding. I have never seen the stream through my home course flood no matter how severe the weather. As the lawyers would say facts not in evidence!

[Ed Oden]

Tim, now that's what I'm talking about!  Too many of the other comments about my design and those of the other contestants have, in my opinion, been short on details.  As you can tell, I have no illusions of grandeur.  So no need to worry about crushing my spirit.  The only spirits left at The Recession Club are poured into a glass.  Let me take your points one by one

Just off the top of my head,  you had a disregard for playing on ridges.  I remeber the northern fairway and a par 3 that made me cringe.

I only see three holes (14 and 15 and maybe 6) that could be argued play on ridges.  I'm not sure that's materially more than most of the other entrants, including the one you rated #1. 

Only one (or 2) tees meant you were designing for a small segment of the golfing demographic.

I will admit that I did not put a great deal of effort into showing multiple tees.  But most of my tees were pretty long (usually 50 yards or so).  My intent was that they could accommodate multiple tees.  And in virtually every case, additional tees could easily be added if needed. 

Some of the transitions from green-to-tee were problematic.

I am a bit surprised by this comment since I thought one of the few strengths of my design was the compact routing with close greens/tees.  My biggest issue is probably with the transition from the 8th green to 9th tees.  If I had it to do all over again, I would have changed #9 some to fit better.  Are there other transitions you thought were poor?

The small piece of fairway just off the tee, on the left side of the creek, that no one will ever use.

Guilty as charged.  I really like the way the creek on #18 at Quail Hollow acts in part as a center line hazard.  I was trying to do something similar, but with admittedly poor results.  In fairness, as I mentioned when Charlie noted this hole as one of his "All-Stars", #1 was one of the last holes I designed and clearly fell into the catagory of a transition hole to make the routing work.  It's definitely not among my favorites.

The green in the oxbow will probably flood.

Perhaps.  But 11 of the 13 entries had something down in that space (green, tees, fairway).  Is mine really any worse?  Plus, we specialize in drainage at The Recession Club.

No clubhouse,range, putting green or irrigation source we also big negatives.

Oops.  The honest answer is "I forgot".  Thank God this class is pass/fail.

Ed

[Tim Nugent]

...
The green in the oxbow will probably flood, ...

I'm a bit tired of all the mentions of flooding. Flooding would be a function of the specific geographic location. The contest did not say this property was in the desert, which is subject to flash flooding which has been mentioned. The contest did not say the stream was snow melt fed that would be subject to spring flooding. I have never seen the stream through my home course flood no matter how severe the weather. As the lawyers would say facts not in evidence!

All you have to do is look at the topo.  The creek is not confined in deep banks and it is the nature of streams to cut through ox-bows as the rush of water cannot turn fast enough, so it eats out the opposing bank and eventually breaks through.  Your personal observations about a stream somewhere are circumstantial.  If there is one mistake a budding young architect can make, it is to under estimate the force of water.  That stream drains a rather sustantial chuck of real estate, just a thunderstorm would add a huge volume of water to it's flow.  It wouldn't surprise me if that green was built that one of two things would happen 1) the course would bring in large stone to armour (if they could get it permitted) the banks or 2) it eventually became an island green.
Garland, what you have to consdier is, with such a huge track of land, why would you put the course at risk.  That could easily be a $100k mistake if your guess is a wrong one.  I don't think the membership/owner would accept "well, there is a creek on my home course and it never floods" when they are breaking out the checkbook, or worse, having their attorney send you a letter.

[Tim Nugent]

Tim, now that's what I'm talking about!  Too many of the other comments about my design and those of the other contestants have, in my opinion, been short on details.  As you can tell, I have no illusions of grandeur.  So no need to worry about crushing my spirit.  The only spirits left at The Recession Club are poured into a glass.  Let me take your points one by one

Just off the top of my head,  you had a disregard for playing on ridges.  I remeber the northern fairway and a par 3 that made me cringe.

I only see three holes (14 and 15 and maybe 6) that could be argued play on ridges.  I'm not sure that's materially more than most of the other entrants, including the one you rated #1. 
It was the 3 in a row -14-16. 14 would work better if the 1st half played against one side of the ridge and the second half twisted and played away from it in a serpentine manner

Only one (or 2) tees meant you were designing for a small segment of the golfing demographic.

I will admit that I did not put a great deal of effort into showing multiple tees.  But most of my tees were pretty long (usually 50 yards or so).  My intent was that they could accommodate multiple tees.  And in virtually every case, additional tees could easily be added if needed. 
If that was youor intent, than show your intent. The client is not a mind reader.  And no, they can't be easily added later. Anything added later costs twice as much and could effect the irrigation design.  It's best to have it all planned out up front.

Some of the transitions from green-to-tee were problematic.

I am a bit surprised by this comment since I thought one of the few strengths of my design was the compact routing with close greens/tees.  My biggest issue is probably with the transition from the 8th green to 9th tees.  If I had it to do all over again, I would have changed #9 some to fit better.  Are there other transitions you thought were poor?
7-8, 8-9, 9-10, 10-11 and 14-15. It looked like you thought of a clubhouse between 9 and 10 but not really enough room
I

The small piece of fairway just off the tee, on the left side of the creek, that no one will ever use.

Guilty as charged.  I really like the way the creek on #18 at Quail Hollow acts in part as a center line hazard.  I was trying to do something similar, but with admittedly poor results.  In fairness, as I mentioned when Charlie noted this hole as one of his "All-Stars", #1 was one of the last holes I designed and clearly fell into the catagory of a transition hole to make the routing work.  It's definitely not among my favorites.

The green in the oxbow will probably flood.

Perhaps.  But 11 of the 13 entries had something down in that space (green, tees, fairway).  Is mine really any worse?  Plus, we specialize in drainage at The Recession Club. Just because someone else did something doesn't make it good or right.  Besides, don't you think that if i dinged you, they probably got dinged too?

No clubhouse,range, putting green or irrigation source we also big negatives.

Oops.  The honest answer is "I forgot".  Thank God this class is pass/fail.

Ed

[JC Jones]

I really enjoy the intimacy of the routing.

[Lester George]

Ed,

Very nice job!

You obviously have a great understanding of topography and have used the features very well here.  I normally don't comment on these things but this is really well thought out.  The second green and your reverse redan are simply elegant.  If we ever dig out of this recession, I will happily work with you on building your dream course.  

Cheers,

Lester

[Ed Oden]

Thanks Lester!  (The check is in the mail.)  My "dream course" would be one where my input is limited to the selection of beer on tap.

Ed

[Garland Bayley]

...
The green in the oxbow will probably flood, ...

I'm a bit tired of all the mentions of flooding. Flooding would be a function of the specific geographic location. The contest did not say this property was in the desert, which is subject to flash flooding which has been mentioned. The contest did not say the stream was snow melt fed that would be subject to spring flooding. I have never seen the stream through my home course flood no matter how severe the weather. As the lawyers would say facts not in evidence!

All you have to do is look at the topo.  The creek is not confined in deep banks and it is the nature of streams to cut through ox-bows as the rush of water cannot turn fast enough, so it eats out the opposing bank and eventually breaks through.  Your personal observations about a stream somewhere are circumstantial.  If there is one mistake a budding young architect can make, it is to under estimate the force of water.  That stream drains a rather sustantial chuck of real estate, just a thunderstorm would add a huge volume of water to it's flow.  It wouldn't surprise me if that green was built that one of two things would happen 1) the course would bring in large stone to armour (if they could get it permitted) the banks or 2) it eventually became an island green.
Garland, what you have to consdier is, with such a huge track of land, why would you put the course at risk.  That could easily be a $100k mistake if your guess is a wrong one.  I don't think the membership/owner would accept "well, there is a creek on my home course and it never floods" when they are breaking out the checkbook, or worse, having their attorney send you a letter.

As I said Tim, it depends on your geographic location. I assume an architect would determine the nature of the stream, and the history of the land before putting in the course features. I would imagine the architect that did our course was fairly certain that the creek would not damage the 12th green which lies a few feet from the green with next to no elevation gain (I estimate less than a foot above the bank). It seems to have been a good evaluation for 30 plus years.

And, contrary to what you imply, there are no oxbows in that creek!

[Nick Campanelli]

I'm sure if I wanted to, I could spend a day and pick this apart further but I tried to judge these submittals by taking into account you guys don't do this for a living and it wouldn't be civil to crush your spirit.

Tim, some of us want to do this for a living, and would love to have you spend a day picking apart our work.  Crush our spirits all you want!

[Ed Oden]

Here is Philip's response on my design...

Hi Ed,

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier as promised but I have been extremely busy the last couple of weeks.

First of all I want to point out that I thought there were no bad proposals from any of the contestants. This, of course, made it more difficult for me to judge.

These were the comments I made while going through your proposal:
1.Many good holes which use the topography well.
Your routing features a lot of very interesting holes which would be very interesting to play and follows the land well. E.g. holes 3 and 9.
2. The routing is a bit cramped considering the space available.
As a result it does not take full advantage of all the natural features on site. I feel the routing could have incorporated more of the area towards the west where there are some very interesting landforms. I found more of the other routings managed to do that. This was in my mind the most important issue as this exercise is perhaps mostly about identifying the landforms and use them in the routing.
3. DR and clubhouse?
The lack of DR and CH is a minus as many of the other entries had thought about this as well. Even with your layout it is difficult to see how you will manage to find room for infrastructure, Parking, DR(?), etc. if the club is to be positioned between holes 1,9,10 and 18.
4. Par 3s 2,14,17 all in similar direction.
This is not ideal and creates a bit of a monotonous feel and exposure to the wind. Especially 2 and 17 could have been angled differently to avoid this issue.
5. Quite a lot of holes play ‘up-and-down’ considering the possibilities of the site, e.g. #1,3,4,5
This should generally be avoided and especially with such a vast site there was every opportunity to spread out the routing.

Again, I just want to say there were no bad efforts. I had the last 5 more or less at the same score so it was really down to the small details.

Hope this helps. If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them.

Best regards,
Philip

Obviously, Philip doesn't particularly like The Recession.  Then again, who does?  I suspect pretty much everyone is ready to put The Recession behind them.

Ed

[Garland Bayley]

I don't get the comments about not being spread out. You put 5 holes in the area that my home course has 18. That seems pretty spread out to me.

[Garland Bayley]

I don't get the comments about not being spread out. You put 5 holes in the area that my home course has 18. That seems pretty spread out to me.

Or to put it in a context more will understand. That infamous Merion course would take up 2 1/2 squares on the map. You pretty much take up 6 squares. You must not be too cramped, because you could fit another world class course and then some in the land you used.

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