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Ally Mcintosh

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Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« on: May 13, 2010, 05:28:06 AM »
Let's get the basics out the way - a site has to drain properly...

But looking at the two courses by Tom MacKenzie at Heythrop Park and Stapleford Park, they are dead flat and just look like the way golf is supposed to be played... Because of the Capability Brown landscapes, the architects were very, very restricted in the amount of earth that they could move... and the resultant courses lack micro-undulations in the fairway and lack framing in any sense of the word... Yet I feel that I could go out and play those courses like I'm going for an enjoyable walk over the fields on an autumn afternoon...

Assuming you've created interest with subtle movements and strategy up at the green end of things, why create micro-undulations when you don't need to?... I guess I'm talking about "minimalism" here... But minimalism on a site where most architects would choose to "create" more interest should the restrictions not be on them...

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2010, 05:43:34 AM »
There was an airport in Chicago that Fazio converted to a golf course back in the 90's. And everyone involved with the project bragged about how much dirt he moved to create interesting terrain. But I thought it would have been a much more interesting and unique golf course if he would have built a flat golf course.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2010, 05:56:50 AM »
I should have stated that Heythrop Park isn't on a completely flat site... It's just that no (or little) shaping would have occurred on the fairways... Therefore when it's flat, it's flat...

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2010, 06:45:56 AM »
Ally,

The fairways at Stapleford were rock hard (clay substructure) last week - I had a lot of bounce which caused me to thin the ball a couple of times.

There has been a lot of shaping done in a small number of specific areas at Stapleford - some were overdone and others done subtly and looks great.

Personally I would have done a number of small hazards more spread out rather than a large area of alpinzation but keep minimal amount of disruption to Capability Brown landscape.

Cheers
Ben
 


Tom Yost

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Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2010, 09:06:58 AM »
Talking Stick North - an example of a thoughtful design that stands as a huge contrast to the typical Phoenix area courses built on flat sites.






Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2010, 04:34:35 PM »
Play Pine Tree for a fun interesting flat golf course.
Mr Hurricane

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2010, 04:44:44 PM »
I think this discussion lacks perpective on construction technology as part of the decisions. When Mac was building golf courses, earthmoving was expensive, and tree planting was not, albeit they probably planted a lot of small trees and waned to wait. No one really cared, as they probably didn't have lots of options.  In addition, french drains were well established as a drainage method.  Pipes and catch basins, not so much.

Even Pine Tree falls in that category - it had trees for interest, and/or planted them.

Go to Newton, KS, where I had to build a course on a flat site with few trees.  It not only had to drain (and with a water table just 3' below the surface) but I had to build some interest in, add detention ponds for non golf reasons, and generally believed what the feasibility study said - there are LOTS of public options around Wichita, KS and they are cheaper than you will likely be and closer to town in an era of newly priced $3-4 Gal gas.  If you want players to pass up all those other options and spend more and more gas go come play, you gotta give them something. 

At the present time, earthmoving is cheaper than adding trees, and I had to move a lot of it anyway for detention.  Seeding contrasting native grasses is cheaper than adding trees.  I need visual appeal NOW, and not ten years from now.  Earthmoving to create unique holes seemed a logical conclusion under my circumstances, just as tree planting gave MAC and others the best bang for the buck for their owners in their day.

It is hard to judge modern courses vs older ones, both because of mature trees giving interest, and the relative ease of different types of construction by era.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2010, 06:06:36 PM »
I side with Jeff on this. The key point to remember is that amost all new golf courses are commercial and new, so to compete with others in the market and compete effectively means 'be better than'. Immediate visual appeal on less interesting or flatter sites can only be done by shaping the subsoils and introducing man made features and hazards. Trees rely on a 20 year view thats no good in a commercial or 'now' world.

Breaking up the ground with a D6 can aid the drainage and can with a +/-  1 metre make a flat field look like a golf landscape. I think in the UK for say £1000 per acre you can really change the feel of field to golf.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2010, 08:12:50 PM »
Take Jeff's site. Flatw/1 shallow water table.  In order to drain, one could make some water table lakes,  This would generate almost 5,000 cubic yards per acre and that doesn't even include the under water earth.  Considerable earth "rearranging" could be done.
Coasting is a downhill process

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2010, 01:01:07 PM »
Hi guys,

Thanks for your answers... It's less a discussion about construction techniques and drainage that I'm getting at though... Heythrop Park for instance is brand new but had little earth movement because of restrictions on the landscaping...

It's more of a discussion about visuals I was getting at... The question was maybe a bit vague...

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2010, 02:23:51 PM »
Ally,

My answer was partly directed at the visuals.  I have had flat sites within wooded corridors and I shaped only within those corridors enough for drainage. I have had flat sites in corn fields where I shaped for drainage and for earth mounds for framing, bunker support, hole separation, etc.

I take it your question is on a flat, non wooded site, should a minimalist approach still be taken, shaping only for drainage and basic golf features like tees, greens, and maybe bunker support?  Does that look better than adding grading for framing mounds or other artifical contouring to make the site look like it originally had some natural contours?

My answer was its a site by site and maybe hole by hole decisions, but me and other modern gca's have certainly made the decision that artifically trying to create some topo intererst looks better than a minimalist course on a flat site.

does the get at your question?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2010, 03:20:58 PM »
Based on what was done at Talking Stick North, I'd have to say yes.  Sure the Glen Club is a pretty good Fazio track, but it must have cost a fortune abd I don't think a lot of guys, or corporations for that matter are lining up to pay $140 a pop.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2010, 05:42:33 PM »
Jud,

A few years ago, they sure were!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2010, 05:19:32 AM »
Ally,

My answer was partly directed at the visuals.  I have had flat sites within wooded corridors and I shaped only within those corridors enough for drainage. I have had flat sites in corn fields where I shaped for drainage and for earth mounds for framing, bunker support, hole separation, etc.

I take it your question is on a flat, non wooded site, should a minimalist approach still be taken, shaping only for drainage and basic golf features like tees, greens, and maybe bunker support?  Does that look better than adding grading for framing mounds or other artifical contouring to make the site look like it originally had some natural contours?

My answer was its a site by site and maybe hole by hole decisions, but me and other modern gca's have certainly made the decision that artifically trying to create some topo intererst looks better than a minimalist course on a flat site.

does the get at your question?

Thanks Jeff... It does yes... I guess the real answer is that if it is artificially created with expertise, then it usually works... Maybe I just see too much fairway shaping that looks artificial... and casting my eyes on Heythrop Park and Stapleford Park where there was no choice, I find myself preferrring that dead flat natural look than one with fairway ripples and green framing that are obviously man-made...

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2010, 08:14:46 AM »
Ally,

Yes, too much does look artifical. I try to study what and why that is to get better.

One idea I hit on actually came from TPC Sawgrass, where I noted that the fw catch basins were always 80 feet (four pipe lengths) apart.  Easy construction, yes,to save sawing a pipe now and then, but basically assures every fw slope will b nearly identical. I have kind of done the same thing. If I tell a draftsman that the fw slope is a minimum of 2.5%, I always get back fw slopes of nearly all 2.5% without much variation!  Staggering necessary catch basins, varying minimum slopes, goes a long way to making the fw grading only for drainage look a lot more natural.

Perhaps not the place for it, but I thought of gca catch basin nazis and chuckled yesterday when my shot had the rare occurrence of landing on a catch basin.  My playing companion noted that I had hit a "grate" shot........
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2010, 08:17:31 AM »
Ally:

Our public course in Denver, Common Ground, was not a completely flat site but relatively flat and open.  [Apart from the hill the clubhouse is on, there's maybe 15-20 feet of gradual tilt.]  With the budget we had, we couldn't spend much money outside the fairways.  We did do a bit of mass grading -- cutting a big swale into the property at holes 13-14-15 -- but certainly not "mounding" between holes.  [Not many fairway catch basins, either, though there was some pipe in the ground from the original course.]  It also helped that we had some trees out there we could transplant cheaply.

Bottom line, I think you have to do SOME work for visual purposes, but that doesn't mean you have to take the same approach we saw so much of in the 80's and 90's.  It's okay for there to be parallel golf holes without mounds between them.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2010, 08:19:42 AM »
Hi guys,

Thanks for your answers... It's less a discussion about construction techniques and drainage that I'm getting at though... Heythrop Park for instance is brand new but had little earth movement because of restrictions on the landscaping...

It's more of a discussion about visuals I was getting at... The question was maybe a bit vague...
Ally,

Heythrop Park cannot really be classed as brand new as it was routed on an English Park that had already had the hand of man shaping it.  I don't know how much the team were restricted by local restrictions but from the photos and 3D fly thrus I have seen, I would most definitely have put more shape in on a number of the holes.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2010, 08:25:00 AM »
Ally,

Re TD and the tree planting, I was on a course recently and they had a minimal tree budget.  On plan, I drew sight lines from all the tees an landing areas extending those lines all the way across the property.  Where two or three intersected is where I directed the trees be planted in clusters.

I do similar things with fw mounding/earthforms.  If one mound can produce some visual change in three or four different main fields of vision I can get more visual effect for less earthwork.  I know some will argue that golfers can look around a bit so why focus on those views, but I notice that even walking/riding down the fw, I actually do tend to look nearly straight ahead.  How many times do golfers really look sideways to view an earthform?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2010, 11:00:22 AM »
Hi guys,

Thanks for your answers... It's less a discussion about construction techniques and drainage that I'm getting at though... Heythrop Park for instance is brand new but had little earth movement because of restrictions on the landscaping...

It's more of a discussion about visuals I was getting at... The question was maybe a bit vague...
Ally,

Heythrop Park cannot really be classed as brand new as it was routed on an English Park that had already had the hand of man shaping it.  I don't know how much the team were restricted by local restrictions but from the photos and 3D fly thrus I have seen, I would most definitely have put more shape in on a number of the holes.
Brian - Our golf club had an away day here yesterday, the feeling was it was not a great course. Our members said the holes were not framed right although they said the short holes were nice, I explained that I thought the architects were very resticted in what they could move. I think this can reflect badly on the architect as very few will understand how his hands were tied. I think Stapleford Park is another in this mould too as the golfers see great land not used and think the archie buggerred it up.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2010, 11:32:37 AM »
I had forgotten about this thread, but its a good one.

We had discussed all this before, but I think you look to a guy like Fazio to see how over shaping can be done well.  In a nutshell, he has the budgets to really move earth to where it looks like a rolling landscape, as opposed to a flat landscape where a few artificial mounds have been put on top. 

He pays attention to the top of his earthforms (to broad to be called mounds) and the tops have 7-10:1 skylines (often about twice the natural slopes) rather than 3-5:1 slopes which look artifical.  Even the 50's guys like RTJ and Plummer used 6:1 slopes which look so much more natural in the midwest at least.

And, he pays attention to the bottom of the earthforms, flaring them out gradually into the bottom areas just like nature tends to do.

Larger scale, softer tops, gentle blends at the bottoms of the slopes.  If you do it well enough, you can convince folks it was nature.  Even I believe it for the most part, but it falls apart for me a bit when I figure I have never seen a natural course with 18 straight holes in gentle valleys just deep enough to not see the next FW.  Every once in a while, he does do a "ridge runner" hole for variety, or leave one flat to help with that illusion.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2010, 12:11:31 PM »
Jeff, funny you should dig this out of the vault toaday.  I was just pondering fairway (and I mean internal. fairway proper, shaping- not perimeter fairway shaping),  Being a landfill and the Finnish earthmover doesn't have a clue, even the fairways aren't c;lose to the plans and I have to shape on the fly just to get the drainage to work - the basins are in per plan (but the PM decided that he didn';t want any angled connections and had them put in 12"catch basins to make the turn - so now I got basins where there should be ridges -Arrgh!!!)
With the limited amount of material available, I have been making small swales and ridges (10cm cut max -that's 4" - the height of the cutting edge on my dozer).  So, I was thinking, Hmmm, one can do alot with 10 cm- would completely shaping entire fairways by citting no more than 10 cm be considered "minimalist? Or would the fact that every squar inch had been "touched" by the hand of Man disqualify it?
Or put another way, How much contour should fairways have? (I still remember Hank Schaul's "Land-Leveler" in use on the fairways at Kemper Lakes)
Coasting is a downhill process

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2010, 01:48:33 PM »
Ally

I don't know if sites are over shaped or not.  Sometimes, this is most definitely the case, but not many of our great clsssic courses are on flat sites.  It seems to me that if on a tight budget and on flat site a toned down the Raynor or Huntercombe/Kington/Beau Desert style would work well.  Very few bunkers, but very centrally placed, mounding and hollows used but not with any intent to look natural.  Throw that out the door and just shoot for something most people haven't seen before, but the strategies are quite obvious even if the "hazards" are a bit different. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2010, 02:20:23 PM »
It's okay for there to be parallel golf holes without mounds between them.

Prophetic. Really.
jeffmingay.com

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2010, 02:36:41 PM »
Hanse's Craighead course at Crail is on a mostly flat site, with a little interest added by a couple of archeologically interesting stone walls which are well used several times.  I don't know for sure but I suspect the construction budget was not generous and it seems to me that, good though the routing is, using the walls and the cliff top well, the of money was spent on the greens, rather than shaping the fairways.  Indeed, to my eye there's very lttle evidence of much shaping away from the bunkering. 
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2010, 04:10:28 PM »

ah, the old design by avoiding the slighlty more expensive angled connection fitting problem. I have faced that, too.  (With American contractors)

Oh the humanity!

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach