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Dave S

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2002, 08:57:53 PM »
Chicago area additions.

Medinah #3 is on the table.

Ravisloe on the south of Chicago is up for work.

Beverly CC is doing or to do some work on the course.

LaGrange CC in the middle of work.

Glen View, done.

Ivanhoe in the middle of work on one of three nines.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2002, 05:57:41 AM »
Tom

I get a visceral reaction to critiques of Bethpage, especially from those who have never seen it or more importantly experienced the endurance necessary to put up with the place. I respect your consistant views on restoration and I nearly always agree with them but I think we will never agree on this one.

There are in fact NO good old photos of the black course in RW's second book.  There are a couple of the red and blue but the bunker style is/was different then the black with its monster sized pits.  There is a photo of the par 3 8th hole of the black from 1956.  That photo has a shallow 6 inch deep round pit on the left of the green that I never experienced.  Instead there was a shallow pond extension created there that was always poluted and smelly.  That nondescript pit could not have been original and no one would want it back if it were. Otherwise no photos of the massive bunkers at Bethpage in the 1930's.  You will have to come and visit the clubhouse to view a few of those.  They were impressive indeed.  However, why not also look at Quaker Ridge on page 111 of one of the RW Tillinghast books (the second I think) for a little perspective.  In it you will see a photo with two supervisors overseeing 14 workers on their hands and knees picking weeds and tending to the course that Tillie says is as immaculate as any in conditioning.  Now imagine the work crew at Bethpage.  The greens fees are $30 and no way will it be tended to as Quaker Ridge will/was.  Do you want to ask the local/state officials to raise taxes to support golfers or perhaps we should raise the fees to $100.

Here is a rhetorical question for you.  Lets suppose Cypress Point was public course run by the state (Tom Huckaby you can start breathing again) and the greens fees were $30.  Do you imagine that anyone could put the place back to those beautiful photos from Geoff's book with dunes and expansive bunkers and at the same time have $30 greens fees and players coming from dawn to dusk all season long?

TO answer your questions

Yes there is likely an increased respect for the course and tee times are now spaced at ten minutes from dawn to dusk.

Of course appearance has a role in restoration, a big one but I'm a realist in this case.  See Cypress example above.

The bunkers are still VERY intimidating. I won't try to quantitate compared with before but they are wickedly difficult.

Now you answer my questions form before.

Would you say there is a difference in a restoration that mainly retains all the difficulty and strategy of the course (Bethpage) with one that does not (Yale & Riviera)?  Which is fundamentally more important style or substance?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2002, 06:11:40 AM »
Dave S.

Who is doing the work at Ivanhoe...the place has always confused me.  I spent the night in the clubhouse once but didn't play for reasons that escape me...is it the 27 hole layout that prevents it from being well respected...or what.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2002, 09:40:16 AM »
I'm not going to repeat the responses that have been put forward by GeoffreyC because I agree with them.

Tom MacWood:

If you have not played the course I don't know how you can say there's been a "heavy handed approach." I've played the Black for over 30 years (more than 100 rounds easy) and seen the course when rubber mats were the best they could provide for tees. You are completely clueless on just how bad things were at the Black and what's been done to the course.

I've also seen the course up close several times since the work of Rees Jones and I can say given the charge that Rees was given he's done very well. Rees was not permitted to significantly alter the greens -- minus the 18th. Look at other elements in what Rees did and, in my opinion, he deserves credit.

The new 8th hole, at 220 yards, is a winner and with a new back pin position the hole will really be sleeper in the Open. The new added rear bunker behind the green will also get some action from overly-aggressive approaches. In addition, the hideous second pond that was far left was removed for good reason -- the main pond in front of the green remains.

As far as Tom Paul's point is concerned I do agree the 18th is a bit much. But, gentlemen, keep this in mind. The 18th was a lackluster finisher BEFORE Rees got to the site. I played the old 18th when it was a max of 375 yards from the little perched tee box and it was always a yawner of a hole after you faced the strong trio of #15 through #17. As a fairly long hitter I can recall hitting tee shots and getting it near the upslope as you walk up towards the green.

In addition, the 18th had major problems with drainage particularly in the drive zone. To Rees credit he did take out bunkers that had been placed in recent times by the club (i.e. the two-little speck bunkers that pinched in the 18th and the ill-advised fairway bunker on the right at #15 which I never saw anyone in, are just two examples).

TomP, the 18th was stretched back to about 425 yards, but it's still a relatively tame closer. Rees did play with the green a bit by reducing the circular disc that was there before. Pins cut on the far right side will be somewhat challenging. But pros will be hitting 3-wood and 1-irons to get in the fairway. I don't have a perfect solution but the 18th at Bethpage didn't need just a restoration -- it should have been changed outright in my mind.

The rest of the Black was wonderfully done by Rees in getting the course back to where it should have been all along. I credit the superintendent and staff for conditions that few clubs on Long Island, including the private ones, could hope to match. The bunkers now have quality sand, consistency in their preparation and are fashioned in the Tillinghast manner (I know this Tom since I have reviewed quite passionately the photos located in their clubhouse -- photos not seen elsewhere) and from conversations with many an old-timer who played the course in the 40's and 50's. Rees followed the style that existed at the course because the appearance of the bunkers looks better than what was there when I first played the course years ago. This is the same man who has done other Tillie restorations at Baltusrol and done them well.

With the new tees in for the Open the course now has bunkers positioned to be a factor -- even for the world's best.

When people say things about the Black, or any other course, by making assessments from the comfort of their living room without EVER having played the course or seen firsthand how it has evolved over the course of time, I can't take seriously ill-informed and generalized comments.

GeoffreyC:

You're right on target -- given the daily pounding the Black has taken over the year from a range of players the course needed a real makeover. You are also right to say that if other courses, like Cypress Point, had to face this daily onslaught with inadequate revenue, it is more than likely you could never return back to the glory days.

To the credit of New York State through an agreement with the USGA the green fees at the Black will still be kept at reasonable levels -- no more than $50 on weekends -- the Black will not become the de facto Pebble Beach or Pinehurst with Master Card being the preferred payment.  For New York or anywhere else = a bargain hard to beat. Will there be more interest in the course? No doubt and deservingly so.

I only wish Rees had been given latitude to upgrade the greens because, like you, I agree that 2/3's of the holes have little to offer in terms of meaningful challenge to what you would fine at other Tillie gems such as Winged Foot, Fenway and Somerset Hills, Alpine, to name just four. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2002, 10:05:14 AM »
You know, guys, the last time (I think only time) I ever went to or played Bethpage Black was about 37 years ago with a bunch of my Marine Corps Reservists buddies. Basically we hadn't been to sleep for about 36 hours and were probably drunker than we thought we were.

I do remember the course though. I don't remember any rubber mats for tees but I can certainly appreciate what you're saying about what a great improvement has been made to the course what with all it's been through.

I don't know what Tom MacWood has said specifically about the restoration and I know I can't comment much on the before and after, but I guess the question remains whatever was done, could it have been done better?

We're not talking some NY State public works restoration program here are we? This is the US Open preparation here. it can't get much more visible and top-drawer than that!

So the question is whatever was done, could it have been done better? Not to be automatically critical of Rees or anyone, this is just an architectural discussion!

Could it have been done even better? You guys might know about that--I sure wouldn't.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2002, 10:45:15 AM »
TEPaul:

Fair question.

My only response would have been with the greens (to be precise about 2/3's of the holes) -- but if that happened you would not have had a restoration it would have been a modernization of sorts and a whole other can of worms would have started. This June we will know for sure from the feedback of the competitors.

I think the Black is clearly better given the vast number of rounds I have played and from observing firsthand the evolution of the property. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2002, 10:48:39 AM »
Tom Paul

Now you're asking a reasonable question that does not make a blanket condemnation of the work done at Bethpage.

You know I am a card carrying fan of both the original work and restoration work done by Gil Hanse, Rodney Hine, Bill Kittleman and Jim Wagner.  I have seen their restorations of Tillinghast's work at Fenway, Alison's work at Century and Ross' work at Plainfield and to say I was impressed with the way they left little evidence that they were ever there would be an understatement. Those were/are magnificent efforts.  I do believe that the artistic style of the original bunkering would have been more faithfully reproduced had they been given the Bethpage project.  However, bunker placement and minor repositioning in light of equipment and strategic elements of the course are all there and really could not have been done better in my opinion (lets totally leave out discussion of #18 for now). The only bunker I can recall playing much differently is the massive bunker fronting #17 where for some misguided reason the lip was lowered.

The substance is almost all there perhaps the style could have been improved upon.  I hope this answers your question.  I'd be curious to hear your opinion regarding differences in restorations like the one I described for Bethpage (not ideal but maintaining the strategies and difficulty) with Yale or Riviera where these basic playing characteristics of the course have been altered.  Should they be lumped together as a group of "failed" projects?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2002, 11:20:11 AM »
Geoffrey
First of all I am not critiquing Bethpage-the design or Bethpage-the golf course, I am critiquing the bunker reconstruction. Obviously I am unable to appreciate the delapitated condition of the course, and perhaps that is the root to our different view point. What you find today is probalby heaven compared to what you had to endure.

As far as your question, I will default to you on Yale. What has been done there has destroyed both the aesthectics and strategy - which is especially tragic considering the portential for greatness. Have the changes at Riviera made it less difficult? Certainly new strategies have been introduced that are not original and never intended by Thomas. But equally egregious is the look they have introduced that bears no resemblence to either the evolved look or the original look. The same could be said with Merion, the greatest crime is the unrelated modern look that has been introduced. That is my compaint with Bethpage. The one common denominator, they are not resorations, they are reconstructions.

If I hired an architect to restore my home course and he asked me what is more important style or substance, I'd send him packing. The reason why you hire a professional or a specialist in restoration is so they can deliver both. They are equally important, interralated and can not be sperated from golf architecture. Obviously maintanance is also very important and maybe that is an area I am not giving enough consideration. On the other hand the course has not reduced the number sand bunkers it must maintain and the new grass tongues are in need of periodic mowing.

As far the old photos, there are four of the Black, two of the Red and one each of the Blue and Yellow. They all share a very similar appearance, much more natural than what you find there today. The aerial from 1935 illustrates the similarity of their natural appearance, and is quite a contrast from the aerial posted several weeks ago. I object to the regularity of the outline and the tongues, the rolled grass faces and the very modern appearance. If that was their only choice in your opinion so be it - I'm still disappointed as someone who appreciated the original look.

I have slightly different take on CPC. As much as I love those original photos, I also love the evolved look at CPC and would have been perfectly happy if they had done nothing. Sure I would like to restore some of those lost bunkers, but CPC, like Merion and Riviera evolved gracefully in my opinion. I don't know the answer to your question about making CPC a public course, only that I think courses like Pebble Beach, Pinehurst #2 and hopefully Bethpage enjoy greater appreciation and respect from the average golfer - the average fellow is a little more appreciative and hopefully that translates to a more careful golfer.

Of course CPC was designed as a private course and Bethpage was designed as a public course. Perhaps Tillinghast did not foresee the amount of play or perhaps the State neglected the course or maybe both. But with today's climate and technology I would have hoped they could restored more of the original unrefined and raw appearance.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2002, 11:23:46 AM »
Tom Paul

Now you're asking a reasonable question that does not make a blanket condemnation of the work done at Bethpage.

You know I am a card carrying fan of both the original work and restoration work done by Gil Hanse, Rodney Hine, Bill Kittleman and Jim Wagner.  I have seen their restorations of Tillinghast's work at Fenway, Alison's work at Century and Ross' work at Plainfield and to say I was impressed with the way they left little evidence that they were ever there would be an understatement. Those were/are magnificent efforts.  I do believe that the artistic style of the original bunkering would have been more faithfully reproduced had they been given the Bethpage project.  However, bunker placement and minor repositioning in light of equipment and strategic elements of the course are all there and really could not have been done better in my opinion (lets totally leave out discussion of #18 for now). The only bunker I can recall playing much differently is the massive bunker fronting #17 where for some misguided reason the lip was lowered.

The substance is almost all there perhaps the style could have been improved upon.  I hope this answers your question.  I'd be curious to hear your opinion regarding differences in restorations like the one I described for Bethpage (not ideal but maintaining the strategies and difficulty) with Yale or Riviera where these basic playing characteristics of the course have been altered.  Should they be lumped together as a group of "failed" projects?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lester George

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2002, 12:58:23 PM »

Jeff,

I am presently restoring Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club in Virginia Beach.  It's a 1930 Charles Banks course which has most of it's original green and greenside bunker complexes in tact.  It is an extremely interesting project because of the Banks hole replications which are still present such as the Alps, Eden, Redan, Biarritz, Road Hole and others.  I am restoring many of the original fairway bunkers that are shown on his 1929 routing (although I am ajjusting for todays' length) which include cross bunkers, some smaller pits and so on.  

The plans are complete and the work begins in June.  I have been working on the project for close to 3 years already and will be glad to get moving.  If you care, I'll keep you informed of the outcome.

It is a very interesting club history which includes Walter Hagen as Club President at one time.  

6,100 yards on approximately 100 acres, Par is 69 and it's stronger than elevator rope!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2002, 03:01:29 PM »
A restoration of a Steamshovel course? I would have thought that would have elicited more responses. Good luck Lester. I have heard many good things about Kinloch, with its myriad routes of play. Congrats! I am looking forward to playing it one of these days.

Always good to have a real architect weigh in on this board, and keep all of us armchair sorts on our toes.


I hope you stick around and post more often.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2002, 03:14:09 PM »
Lester George:

Would you kindly keep Golfclubatlas informed of the restoration by posting on here from time to time? Anything that comes up or anything at all that occurs to you would be just fine.

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2002, 04:54:17 PM »
Update on Beverly CC:

The Master Plan Committee hopes to get the membership
vote and approval this summer for the Long-Range Plan
developed for our Donald Ross classical course by Ron
Prichard.

The membership will be begin receiving their brochure on
the plan in the next few weeks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JakaB

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2002, 06:15:04 AM »
Anyone with a serious interest in restoration should see Beverly before the work becomes too advanced...This is a rare chance to see an intelligent plan being implemented on a truly classic design.  The changes proposed are subtle enough that just seeing the work when it is completed will not give the student of architecture a true feel of how important the changes will be.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2002, 07:15:34 AM »
I don't want to beat a old horse over and over but

There are NO old photos of the Black course in the 2nd Tillinghast book.  4 photos- Yes
1- is the cover photo of #5 that I mentioned. It's post 1960 at least and it covers up as many photos can the abuse, neglect and poor conditioning.
2- is of #8 from 1956 with the sad left greenside bunker that was removed for a smelly pond which was thankfully removed in the latest work.
3- the 1935 aerial - hard to see the massive bunkering and if you want to look closely the fairway bunker on #5 shown on the cover is missing or very small compared with the more modern version.
4- schematic of the aerial.

What you can't tell from photos when you mention the blue and yellow course bunkers share similar natural appearance with the ones from the black (of which you couldn't see because there are no old close up photos) is that the bunkers on the black are massive and deep much more so overall then the bunkers on the blue and yellow. The red is a teriffic and difficult course that I hope will also be restored.  Its not quite on the large scope of the black but worthy none the less.

Its tough to make conclusions from photos alone especially when you are comparing photos from different courses (black new vs. yellow, blue and red old).

It looks a bit different in black and white

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2002, 08:39:34 AM »
JakaB:

A most interesting post or yours about Beverly and the significance for a student of architecture of seeing and understanding the before and after of the restoration.

I might have to speak to Ron about that and possibly even travel for the first time in my life inside the limits of that wild west town called Chicago. Can you guarantee my safety?

I hope the club fully documents the before and after both photographically and otherwise. Could it be considered a case study in restoration for reasons you might need to explain?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2002, 08:52:34 AM »
Paul,

FYI The Minikahda Club in Minneapolis, another Ross gem, is starting a Prichard-led restoration late this summer, scheduled completion June 2003. The main focus is tree removal (18% of the trees) and bunker restoration. I've seen the plans and it looks promising. Let me know if you want to know more or contact someone there.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2002, 11:24:52 AM »
Geoffrey
Here is the color photo:



In my version of 'Reminiscences of the Links' there are 3 photos of the Black from 1938, one from 1956, photos of the three other courses are from 1935, 1938, 1949 and 1958. All are of a similar character, as is reflected in the 1935 aerial and 1935 plan. They appeared to have been designed and constructed in very similar manner.

The recontructed bunkers are not similar to those old bunkers with few exceptions. I'm not sure where this new style came from (almost crab like with extremely pronounced bays, it appears to me the reconstruction architect took artistic liberties not normally found with a sensative restoration - exemplified by the new 18th), but in my view much of the new bunkering doesn't accurately reflect the image created by Burdock and Tillinghast (or the old delapitated evolved look either) . But you are free to strongly disagree or to claim that I am looking at the project unrealisticly. I'm not sure what the old photos in the clubhouse look like, but there are other resources from the Architectural Record to Golf Illustrated to the NY Times to old golf magazines. The Red and Blue were opened in May 1935 and The Black was opened a year later in 1936. I'm probably being overly critical, and the Black may be better than it has ever been - I just prefer the original appearance of the bunkering to what is found there today.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2002, 03:40:55 PM »
I think we have been down this same road before. (Somewhere in there is a theme for a Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young song)

After looking at some of the pictures on that Golf VR website thing-a-ma-jig. I do have to agree to some sense that the bunkers at Bethpage are better looking then I have seen in pictures before the Reestoration (Reconstruction) and in some cases, even similarly constructed to another Reestoration (Reconstruction) I have recently seen at Torrey Pines-South. However, they are far from what I call suitable for the task of claiming them restored.

Having not seen BB, I have to ask, "Are the greenside areas much harder now since this renovation?" Meaning has the level of difficulty around the greens been raised since all of this massive effort?

I have to say that the bunkers do have a harshness to them that really represent a modern commerical view how Classic bunkers should look. And in total agreement with the ones who have played BB the most, glad to see that the course is in so much better condition now when compared to previous practices.

It is here I think of  a similar situation at Griffith Park.

One can only imagine what could be acheived with the right mindset. Would it be better with Gil Hanse and Geoff Shackelford doing it or Rees Jones? I could never hope in a million years Gil or Geoff both be subjected to such mindlessness as a LA City Council meeting detailing the propsed restoration of George Thomas's gifts to his adopted city. I could only hope that it was Rees that had to forego such buearacracy!:)

I can see Zev Yaroslavsky now jumping on top of a podium detailing of how the par 3, 3rd is better served now without those hideous Billy Bell bunkers!

What an ass! (And poor Zev probably doesn't even have a clue as to who George Thomas even was!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2002, 04:51:23 PM »
I',m pretty passionate when it comes to the Black course so I apologize for putting everyone through this.

Tom - I looked again in all three of RW's books.  There are NO good photos of the bunkers on the black course.  The photos you refer too of the black are on page 152-154 of "Reminiscences of the Links".  I referred to a modern pre restoration/remake of #5 on the cover of "The Course Beautiful".  There are no bethpage photos in the third book.

You refer to three photos from 1938. They are on page 152.  One is of the first hole with a gallery of thousands walking down the fairway.  There is a faint glimmer of a bunker in the upper left corner of the photo.  I hope that's not what you are using to base your opinion of the style of the bunkers.

The second photo is from the first tee showing Snead, Runyon, Hines and Baosch before a match.  No bunkers are in view at all.

The third is of #8 and again no bunkers are in view.  That sand on the side of the hill is no where near in play .  Again, nothing to base an opinion on the style of the old bunkers.

The aerial is low magnification.  I studied it extensively under a magnifying glass and asked several questions about it in the past. There are some GLARING differences between that aerial and the course that I knew from 1969-today, especially on #'s 1,5,6 and 16.  I don't believe that aerial can be the basis of a realistic assessment of the bunkering but perhaps you'd like to comment on the differences between the 1935 aerial view of #5 and the picture on the cover of The course beautiful.

So, there you go.  There are NO old photos to show you what the bunkers looked like especially at ground level.  I ask anyone with that book to look at the photos and see if you can conclude how they played or what they were like from the photos alone. Correct me if I'm wrong.  I fully respect your opinion that you do not like the new Rees bunkers.  At least you have seen photos of them.  If you want to compare them with what was there in the early days of the course than I conclude that your credibility is zero on this issue.

I will say no more.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2002, 06:08:51 PM »
Geoffrey
I tell you what I see since my credibility is history. There are two photos of the 1st from 1938, in both photos you can clearly see a fairway bunker (I recall that you had pointing out in the past they are no longer). You can also see the well bunkered 17th green in the background. The 1938 photo of the 8th shows two bunkers, the one which is out of play is clearly seen - it may be out of play, but I assume that Burdock and Tillinghast didn't discrimate against out of play bunkers. The photos of the other courses illustrate a number of bunkers and they all reflect the same character -- these courses were constructed concurently.

There are other resourses other than this book - including from what you say photos in the clubhouse - and I'm sure you have studied these photos, based on what you have seen are the new bunkers reflective of the original bunker style? And why the magical 1969 date, what is the significance of that date?

I have no idea why the bunker on the 5th is not found on the 1935 aerial, although the course was not completed until the following year. How many new bunkers did Rees add, there seems to be a number of new fairway bunkers? And many of the greens seem to be guarded by similar scarab-like bunkers are they accurately restored? If given a budget of $3 million budget would you be satisfied if Yale were renovated instead of restored?

You are free to disagree with my opinion and you are free to question my credibility - I'm confortable with both.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John N. Gunning IV

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2002, 05:18:16 PM »
Southern Hills Country Club in Tulsa, OK.  The restoration/renovation/remodel was done by Keith Foster out of Paris, KY for the 2001 U.S. Open.  Keith would be a great person to talk to, he has done a couple other restorations but I am not sure the course names.  I know he is currently working on one or two.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2002, 05:43:59 PM »
Lester,
 Thanks for letting us know about the Bank's course project. Any chance you can post some before pix, so we can compare them to the work you are going to be doing? Good luck with the project. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2013, 11:47:56 PM »
This was a great thread.  Kind of a shame that many people who contributed are gone.

I'm sure many courses now can make the list.

California Golf Club
Maidstone
Old White
Old Town Club
Los Angeles CC



Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2013, 07:43:49 PM »
Jeff's gone!  :'(

Now who will respond when I put up another Macan course thread?  ???
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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