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John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2010, 06:43:26 AM »
Nice photos, Chip (and a really good original topic).

Looking forward to making the Old Mac comparison in a few weeks.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2010, 08:37:20 AM »
Patrick (and Chip):

Re. the 8th and the Principal's Nose bunker -- does it force the player into a decision of avoiding it by playing left or right of the bunker complex? In other words, does it create multiple playing corridors and options for the player because of its penal nature? What are the advantages/disanvantages of playing away from it in either direction re. approach shot into the green (which probably depends on pin position)? From an aerial, it looks like it's a very long shot to carry off the tee.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2010, 09:05:00 AM »
Bearing in mind my post No.2 on this thread which stated that this is just about the No.1 course I want to see, am I allowed to offer a negative opinion?...

I really don't like the cross-hatching on the approaches... Far too "busy"...

Understood, BUT, that mowing makes the fronts tighter and faster, which presents a benefit to the ground game and a danger to both the aerial and ground game.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2010, 09:17:52 AM »
Patrick (and Chip):

Re. the 8th and the Principal's Nose bunker -- does it force the player into a decision of avoiding it by playing left or right of the bunker complex?


Phil, I don't believe the PNB is clearly visible from the tee, making it difficult to judge where to play your tee shot.
In addition, the fairway generally slopes from high left to low right, although, the area between the centerline row and PNB tends to be fairly flat.

When Tiger played the hole for the first time, he hit a 2-iron over the centerline row of bunkers and short of the PNB.
But, that's when he was accurate off the tee ;D


In other words, does it create multiple playing corridors and options for the player because of its penal nature?

If you hit the long ball, you have to make a choice, blast away, and take your chances that your drive will find the greater fairway area and won't end up in the PNC, or try to favor one side over the other, understanding the slope of the fairway, or lay up left or right of the centerline row and short of the PNB


What are the advantages/disanvantages of playing away from it in either direction re. approach shot into the green (which probably depends on pin position)?

A lot depends upon where the hole is located, but, a golfer's primary concern is finding the fairway.
A good deal of what goes into that decision depends upon how the golfer has played and driven the ball on the previous 7 holes.
If the golfer has driven well and is confident he'll probably make the bolder decision.
If the golfer's confidence is suspect, he'll probably opt for a safer shot.


From an aerial, it looks like it's a very long shot to carry off the tee.

It might have been done, but, I don't recall hearing of anyone flying the PNC bunker.
As I said, head winds and heavy air tend to restrict distance on this hole.



Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2010, 09:32:01 AM »
Bearing in mind my post No.2 on this thread which stated that this is just about the No.1 course I want to see, am I allowed to offer a negative opinion?...

I really don't like the cross-hatching on the approaches... Far too "busy"...

Understood, BUT, that mowing makes the fronts tighter and faster, which presents a benefit to the ground game and a danger to both the aerial and ground game.


Does it though... Could you not hand-mow in the same two stripe pattern?... Does this make sense - I don't know... I'm sure most of our GB&I courses don't have cross-hatched approaches when they've traditional fairway mowing...

Ah... It's a small thing really, isn't it?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2010, 09:37:04 AM »
Bearing in mind my post No.2 on this thread which stated that this is just about the No.1 course I want to see, am I allowed to offer a negative opinion?...

I really don't like the cross-hatching on the approaches... Far too "busy"...

Understood, BUT, that mowing makes the fronts tighter and faster, which presents a benefit to the ground game and a danger to both the aerial and ground game.


Does it though...

YES

Could you not hand-mow in the same two stripe pattern?... Does this make sense - I don't know...


Hand Mowing is EXPENSIVE.
Thus, I don't think it makes sense.


I'm sure most of our GB&I courses don't have cross-hatched approaches when they've traditional fairway mowing...

Different climate, different grasses, different soils


Ah... It's a small thing really, isn't it?

I happen to agree with you, in that I"m not fond of the busy look, but, if it improves playability, then I guess that's a reasonable trade off.


Matt Bosela

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2010, 09:46:38 AM »
Those pictures are stunning!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2010, 09:59:23 AM »
Thanks Pat... I still don't understand how a mowing pattern can make the ground play faster and firmer... They must be hand mowing at the moment. They just need to change the way they hand mow.... I'm genuinely a little ignorant here so if anyone wants to weigh in...

But we're totally off topic...

I wish I were visiting both NGLA and Old Mac... Then I'd be in a position to contribute to this thread properly...

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2010, 12:37:48 PM »
Thanks for the great pics. What a spectacular setting for golf.

I can honestly say that although I've been lucky enough to play many wonderful golf courses, my golf "list" won't ever be complete until I've had the chance to play NGLA and Shinnecock.  They are 1 and 1A on my to do list.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2010, 02:56:06 PM »
Is that you in the Road bunker Chip? How did you do? My partner got his up and down! (He freaked out when he saw his ball, I had to calm him down, then he hit it to 8 feet and made the putt! :) )


Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2010, 07:00:18 PM »
Is that you in the Road bunker Chip? How did you do?

Bill-

Yep, that was my approach shot where I was trying to get cute and hit it in the bunker.

I did get it up and down though...


Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2010, 07:14:06 PM »
Chip,

I'd be happy to discuss any of the holes.

Which places at NGLA don't you get ?

There's an incredible amount of subtlety that becomes all too apparent when you make a mistake.
Repeat play helps reveal more and more about the course.

It is truely unique .... and fun.

Pat -

A few places that I can't see the subtlety....

#2  Once you get over the idea of a blind driver, its just a drive and flip wedge to a flat green???

#3 I realize this is one of the most beloved holes on the course (if not the world) but I simply don't see the novelty in hitting a 180 yard six iron approach shot over a 50 foot tall hill.  I realize I in the minority on this, but I just don't see it.

#10  Flat, straight and easy?  What did I miss?

#17 200 yard tee layup tee shot to the widest (40 yard wide) part of the fairway and then a wedge to the flattest green on the course?

Again, I think National is fantastic, but there are places I haven't quite figured out the subtlety yet.

Any help is appreciated.

Chip


MHiserman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2010, 07:15:25 PM »
Thank you for the pictures Mr. Gaskin.
What a nice photo journey.  I felt like I played everyhole again.
My Score...68.
Thanks Mr. Olsen
"Whether my schedule for the next day called for a tournament round or a trip to the practice tee, the prospect that there was going to be golf in it made me feel priviledged and extremely happy, and I couldn't wait for the sun to come up the next morning so that I could get on the course"-BH

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2010, 07:35:41 PM »
Ben & Phil

Not sure how long #8 is honestly.  We played the back tees and I hit driver directly at the central bunkers, knowing the likelihood of me hitting it dead straight is low and therefore ending up either just right or just left of the central hazard.  With that said, I did end up hitting it straight and was just a few steps from going in the longest central bunker.



The approach shot is really intimidating...I had six iron in if I remember correctly to a false front, heavily bunkered, uphill green.



Looking back from the 9th tee



Mike-

No, carrying a SLR on my shoulder between shots is not a big deal.  Heck, it even helps me not think about the next shot or more probably the last bad shot.  Knowing I am getting some very good pictures of a place like National makes it pretty easy.  If you have a caddie its really not a big deal and most of the best courses in the world do have caddies, so you can pull it off.  Problem is I am running out of wall space to put all the pictures :-)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 07:49:18 PM by Chip Gaskins »

TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2010, 07:46:01 PM »
"We played the back tees and I hit driver directly at the central bunkers, knowing the likelihood of me hitting it dead straight is low and therefore ending up either just right or just left of the central hazard.  With that said, I did end up hitting it straight and was just a few steps from going in the longest central bunker."


Chip:

If you're talking about the last bunker of the inline chain in the middle of the fairway, that last one to carry is probably 250-260 from the tips but if you are talking about the one in that photo where you posted the above that is the Principles Nose and to carry that from the tips is over 300.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2010, 07:46:13 PM »
Chip

I thought I'd show a comparison of your pic. of the NGLA version and that I posted on my OM thread a while back....




TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2010, 07:58:34 PM »
"A few places that I can't see the subtlety....

#2  Once you get over the idea of a blind driver, its just a drive and flip wedge to a flat green???"

Provided you hit it solid and hit it straight. ;) Fail to do that and you have some problems

"#3 I realize this is one of the most beloved holes on the course (if not the world) but I simply don't see the novelty in hitting a 180 yard six iron approach shot over a 50 foot tall hill.  I realize I in the minority on this, but I just don't see it."

One just feels that with that totally blind green they do need to get it on the green and on the right part to the day's pin or there can be a serious problem two putting (on where the pin is to that blind green I think they have 3-4 different position's or holes in which they can plant that directional poll on the berm behind the green). The other concern with that hole for a good player is to have the ball bounce just over the green up into the longish grass on that back berm. That's a problem. (By the way, when I went back there after about forty years and first played the 3rd, I hit a six iron but I thought I hit it way too far right for the left front pin position. When I got up there, to my surprise, the ball was about a foot from the hole. I think it might've just trickled all the way down from the right side).

"#10  Flat, straight and easy?  What did I miss?"

Not if the pin is in the front section which is extremely narrow.

"#17 200 yard tee layup tee shot to the widest (40 yard wide) part of the fairway and then a wedge to the flattest green on the course?"

That's pretty much it but the deal with this hole is most good players, particularly, in competition feel like they should or might really need to birdie this hole. Like #14 that also looks like a big fairly bland green, even though this one is blind from the approach it is just a wedge but balls have a way of getting over this green a lot easier than one realizes particularly if the pin is in the back half of both this one and #14.

Chip:

I don't know what the conditions were like when you played NGLA but that course is one that absolutely lights up when the conditions are firm and fast both "through the green" but particularly on the greens. As a barometer I like to see the course firm and fast enough where most any player could not really land the ball on the redan green and keep it on the green! To me that particular example is NGLA's "F&F" barometer!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 08:07:59 PM by TEPaul »

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2010, 08:04:47 PM »
Nice pics.  Do you have any notches left for the belt, Chip?

Kyle Harris

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2010, 08:16:28 PM »
Bearing in mind my post No.2 on this thread which stated that this is just about the No.1 course I want to see, am I allowed to offer a negative opinion?...

I really don't like the cross-hatching on the approaches... Far too "busy"...

Understood, BUT, that mowing makes the fronts tighter and faster, which presents a benefit to the ground game and a danger to both the aerial and ground game.


How?

Double-cutting helps with that. Crosshatching can be a form of double cutting.

TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2010, 08:33:51 PM »
Kyle:

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one on here who questions Patrick on some of his hair-brained remarks!  ;)

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2010, 09:15:49 PM »
Nice pics.  Do you have any notches left for the belt, Chip?

Brad-

Not trying to notch any belts, just very lucky to see some great places, often due to the generosity of folks on GCA.com.  I have played National before but this time I had my new SLR camera so I thought posting a few cool pics would be fun.  I am just very lucky.

Chip

Mike Demetriou

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2010, 09:44:13 PM »
Chip, you mean you stole your WIFE's new SLR camera!


Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2010, 10:14:06 PM »
"We played the back tees and I hit driver directly at the central bunkers, knowing the likelihood of me hitting it dead straight is low and therefore ending up either just right or just left of the central hazard.  With that said, I did end up hitting it straight and was just a few steps from going in the longest central bunker."


Chip:

If you're talking about the last bunker of the inline chain in the middle of the fairway, that last one to carry is probably 250-260 from the tips but if you are talking about the one in that photo where you posted the above that is the Principles Nose and to carry that from the tips is over 300.


Tom

Yes, I am talking about the longest bunker in the inline chain.  260 into a headwind is about all I have, so that about where my tee ball landed this time.  I can't imagine anyone carrying over the Principles Nose.  Have you ever heard of that? 

Also, last week it was fairly firm but nothing like when I have played it in the past.  You and Pat are correct, when it is firm and fast the course takes on a completely different feel.

Chip

TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2010, 10:23:13 PM »
"I can't imagine anyone carrying over the Principles Nose.  Have you ever heard of that?"


Chip:

Well, first of all to carry the Principles Nose bunker seems to me a bit odd because there is a ton of fairway room to the left of it which is actually a tad higher.

But yes, I have heard of someone carrying that Priniciples Nose bunker. The former super of NGLA, Karl Olsen told me he did it once!

But you know the way it is. There is always a bigger fish story out there somewhere----eg somebody on here told me they actually saw Tiger Woods carry the cross bunkers on #9 with a 1 iron.

These golf courses and their architectural features were not designed to deal with shit like that nor should they ever be, in my humble and very short opinion! 

Thomas Patterson

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2010, 10:29:00 PM »
Absolutely amazing pics...thank you for taking the time and effort to share them Chip!  Just being able to view this course in pictures is a real treat.  It must be amazing to see it in real life!  Every single hole looks like pure fun to me!