Dr.MacKenzie and Cliff Roberts........

[Bob_Huntley]

Is anyone aware of letters between the good doctor and Roberts, concerning payment for his work at Augusta?

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Not specifically but somewhere I do remember reading quotes from MacKenzie on the subject. I recall he was almost begging ANGC to pay him as it seemed he was completely broke. Very near the end of his life as I recall.

GeoffShac might know; I may have read it in one of his books. It must have been from a letter of MacKenzie's as it was fairly extensive I think. I would love to know the facts though as it seems like an odd thing of ANGC to do but we don't really know the facts, I suppose.

I could be wrong but I recall they owed him $5,000 and only paid him $1500. They should probably track down his 3rd cousin if that's all that's left and pay him just to get rid of this ugly story, particularly with what I heard indirectly that they spent last year--which was beyond shocking.

[ed_getka]

Tom Paul,
Its in the Spirit of St. Andrews book that was published a few years back. There may have been some mention in Robert's book "Story of the Augusta National...", but I doubt he would want that seen. Also, check the Curt Sampson book or possibly the Eubanks book re: Augusta/Masters. Hope this helps. If you need any of these books let me know and I'll send them along.

[Dan Kelly]

Hey, you mathematics/finance guys:

How much would $3,500, plus reasonable interest for 70 years, come to?

[ed_getka]

Are you in line to inherit it Dan?

[Dan King]

A few years back there were three books that came out about Augusta and the Masters.

Curt Sampson did the hatchet job, David Owens wrote the official history and Steve Eubanks wrote something in between.  I've gone through my bookshelves and can't find Sampson's who I believe went into the most detail regarding the correspondence between Mackenzie and Roberts.

Sampson's must still be in a box, and I'll post more if I find it.

I don't believe Eubanks got into it, but Owen's quotes some of it, saying Mackenzie was either being humerous or exagerating. He says he and his wife had started cutting each other's hair and had scrounging wood  to warm the house, "but now all the family has poison oak and the medical treatment has cost more than we saved. . . The future is bright but we shall be sunk before we get to it unless you can come to our rescue."

Mackenzie was owed $10k, lowered his fee to $5k and according to Owen collected about $2k.

"I am at the end of my tether, no one has paid me a cent since last June, we have mortgaged everything we have and have not been able to pay the nursing expenses of my wife's operation. . . Can you possibly let me have, at any rate, five hundred dollars to keep us out of the poor house?"
 --Alister Mackenzie (in a letter to Cliff Roberts, who owed Dr. Mackenzie $8,000 for the design of Augusta National)

[TEPaul]

Dan King:

That's exactly what I saw--what book was that in?

Dan Kelly:

70 years with interest for that kind of thing?--about 20-30mil but still chicken feed to those folks. They should just pay the 20mil number in 2002 or in 2003 Tony Soprano should pay them a visit!

[ed_getka]

I'm pretty sure "The Pasatiempo Story" has that info too. I'm not at home so I can't check. I checked, I was wrong)

[Lou Duran]

$3,500 at 5% for 70 years turns into a little over $147,000.  The principals at ANGC should have been ashamed of themselves.  Even during the Depression, I doubt that Jones or Roberts wanted for anything.  From all accounts, Dr. MacKenzie performed well and met his clients' expectations (there was some controversy about the frequency of site visits, but the course was a critical success from the outset).  It is particularly regrettable that Dr. MacKenzie was so financially burdened late in life, and left little to his wife when he died.  As one who has been screwed out of significant commissions by very wealthy people on a couple of occasions, it is still a mystery to me how those who clearly have the means to meet their obligations can so easily avoid doing so while maintaining an air of respectability.  Many considered Roberts to be a jerk, but Bobby Jones is universally loved.  If Jones was a party to the swindling of his design partner, I have to wonder how much of his sterling reputation is justly deserved.    

[ChipOat]

David Owen's book has this to say:

Actually, Roberts became dead broke while he was getting ANGC going.  He had some good years in the Roaring 20's but went through it all while living in Augusta during the early 30's and devoting all his time to selling memberships.  He was actually paid a $40 commission for every member he brouight in!

While Jones could have covered McKenzie's fee out of his own pocket, (he was making pretty big $$ in those days), he would then have had to cover ALL the club's indebtedness, which was substantial.  Roberts had to re-finance the club's bank debt more than once in the early years.

Hard to believe, but ANGC almost went under a couple of times up through 1945 - only post-war prosperity put the club on solid ground to stay.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I think Dan Kings has it right, although I thought it was little more complicated. I do recall MacKenzie lowered his fee to keep the project alive (by 50%), but didn't recieve payment in ANGC bonds because Roberts claimed the club was out of money, unfortunately the bonds that were pretty much worthless. Although I think someone at Pasatiempo gave him cash form a portion of them. Its all well documented in Owen's book. There were several clubs that MacKenzie's estate had claims against - including Ohio State.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Lou,

Swindling is a pretty strong word. We don't know all that went down in that deal between ANGC and MacKenzie.
Things get distorted over a long period of time.

[TEPaul]

Things definitely can get distorted over time and the fact that ANGC may have been broke or near to it way back then may have a good deal to do with it--obviously does!

But unless the ethics of debt have some statute of limitation attached to them, which I don't think they do, they should pay him now, even posthumously, particularly if they ever use his name which they do, because they sure aren't broke now!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here are some figures for compound interest, figured monthly, using $5,000.00 over a 70 year term:

5% = $164,377.63
6% =   329,960.94
7% =   661,957.65
8% =  1,327,235.91
9% =  2,659,598.30
10%= 5,326,407.51

Amazing what a couple of points do over time! No matter how you look at it they owe that boy some serious scratch.
Maybe they paid him under the table?

[Lou Duran]

Gary:

Mine was a poor choice of words, though I think that a moral obligation exists to this day.  Even if Roberts was broke as noted above, Jones and others had the wherewithal to at least ameliorate the Doctor's financial plight.  I know first hand that the real estate business in not for the faint-hearted.  Each deal stands in its own right, and the general public would probably be surprised with the number of wealthy "pillars of the community" who have a lengthy history of defaults and bankrupt partnerships.  A great lawyer and a sharp accountant can be just as effective as any street weapon without the downsides in the eyes of the law.  I just thought that the doctrine of "a dollar in my pocket is better than a dollar in yours" was a rather recent concept.  We've all heard of times when a gentleman's word was as good as gold and a handshake was all that was necessary to make a contract.  Perhaps human nature really has not changed that much at all, and there just is a tendency to romanticize the past (no analogy to gca intended).  

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

TEPaul,

How do you know things weren't settled long ago? Sure, a debt should be honored, I'm just saying Lou, you, and me weren't privy to what the arrangement was, and what actually went down.

[Ed_Baker]

If this issue is mentioned in 3 books then it must have been settled long ago, right?

ANGC wouldn't leave that kind of liability out there, would they?

Given Jones' reputation as a gentlemen and scholar and practicing attorney for that matter, he wouldn't be party to such nonsense. I would think out of his love of golf and what MacKenzie contributed to the game that Jones would have given Dr. Mac. a personal check to bail him out.

Maybe I'm being naive, but it just doesn't make sense.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Lou,

You and me must have just posted at the same time.

I totally agree that a debt should be honored. You are also right about some of the sleaze that goes on out there today, and probably yesteryear also. My guess is that there more sleaze today than in the past, as standards have definitely gone down, and shamelessness is everywhere.

I was just taking a small objection to the word swindling, as I felt that was a little strong.

Best wishes.

[Richard_Goodale]

If you read the other ANGC thread which links the GSGA article on the evolution of the course, you will see that the TOTAL cost of the project--land acquisition through to the first golf ball hit in anger over a finished course--was $170,000.  So, McKenzie's original fee of $10K was absolutely Nicklausesque!

Also, I don't buy the speculation that the club was strapped for cash.  Even in the Depression $170K was chicken feed to the guys who were funding the project, and also (probably) to Jones.  Roberts is the odd-man-out and probably the key to a lot of the "mysteries."  Very little of what I have read about the guy indicates that he was a paragon of any kind of virtue, except the "It's all about me" ilk.  Perhaps he was just prescient.........

[Dan Kelly]

For my money (and excepting Ed Baker's and Shivas's comments about the playability of Elin Nordegren -- whose abdominal muscles, in case you were wondering, reminded me of the Church Pews at Oakmont, and whose navel must surely have inspired all of us to reveries about the Road Bunker), this is the GCA line of the year (to date) -- from Doyen Tom Paul:

"Unless the ethics of debt have some statute of limitations attached to them, which I don't think they do, they should pay him now, even posthumously...."

"The ethics of debt" is a spectacular phrase.

And I agree 100%: If Augusta stiffed MacKenzie, and if no arrangement was ever agreed to with his heirs ... well, as they've been known to say in Georgia: 'Tain't fittin'.

There's an interesting subtext in David Owen's book, regarding the finances of Roberts, Jones and ANGC. As I recall the book, Owen makes it clear, without ever coming close to saying so directly (the folks at ANGC likely wouldn't have appreciated any direct statement -- and may have missed Mr. Owen's subtly delivered implication), that, financially speaking, Jones was in a position to be considerably more generous to Roberts, to the club, and to the club's creditors  than he, in fact, was.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich,
If his fee was 10k and the cost of construction was 170k for a total of 180k, then his fee was approx. 5 1/2%. Hardly in the same league as JN or TF.

[Richard_Goodale]

Jim

I was thinking that 10K in a total project cost of 170K was pretty much equivalent to a fee of 1 million in a total project cost of 17 million.  Have I got the math worng?

[Richard_Goodale]

Dan K

You (and his Doyenhood) remind me of the immortal words of Calvin Coolidge when asked if he would accede to the demands of the British Government that the US forgive all of the indebtedness incurred by the UK when the US financed their participation in WW1:

"They hired the money, didn't they?"

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Immortal words indeed--long life Calvin!

Was he the stiff who hardly ever said anything or was that Warren Harding?

Whichever one it was it's likely that Alice Longworth (Teddy Roosevelt's asp-tongued daugher) hated both of them!

When one of them died and Alice heard about it all she said was; "How can you tell?"

But I think it was Calvin who nailed her at a party when she went up to him and told him that she had just bet so and so that she could actually get him to say more than three words and he said to Alice; "You lose!"

[Dan Kelly]

Tom I --

He was that stiff in question. Silent Cal.

I don't believe that Alice Longworth was the wag in question who said  "How could they tell?" I believe it was one of the Algonquin Round Tablettes -- Dorothy Parker?

Alice Longworth was the wag famous for: "If you can't say anything good about someone, sit right here by me." According to Bartlett's, that was "embroidered on a pillow in her sitting room."

Modified: Just went to double-check re: Dorothy Parker and came across a treasure of her wit -- to wit (and I'm certain this must pertain, somehow, to architecture):

"It's a small apartment, I've barely enough room to lay my hat and a few friends."

On learning that Calvin Coolidge was dead she remarked,
"How could they tell?"

"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think."

In a book review: "This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown aside with great force."

"Brevity is the soul of lingerie."

"I like to have a martini,
Two at the very most.
After three I'm under the table,
After four I'm under my host!"

Wasn't the Yale prom wonderful?
"If all the girls in attendance were laid end to end,"
she said, "I wouldn't be at all surprised."

"Look at him, a rhinestone in the rough."

"You know, that woman speaks 18 languages,
and she can't say "no" in any of them."

"His body has gone to his head."

In a 1933 review of the play "The Lake" starring Katharine
Hepburn:"Miss Hepburn runs the gamut of emotions from A to B"

"Men seldom make passes at girls who wear glasses."

In a New Yorker review of A.A. Milne's
"House at Pooh Corner": "Tonstant weader fwowed up."

Another book review:
"He is beyond question a writer of power; and his power lies in
his ability to make sex so thoroughly, graphically and
aggressively unattractive that one is fairly shaken to ponder
how little one has been missing."

For her own epitaph:"Excuse my dust.