[Bill_McBride]

I don't get that; neither NGLA nor Lundin Links has a green that either slopes away or a hill that is tied into the green.  

You're really stretching here, but keep going, you're on a roll!

Bill,

As I said, I haven't played the hole at Lundin Links, so as I said above am relying on the descriptions of others. For example, here is what Tom Doak wrote above about the hole in question:

On that hole, there is a big dune to the left and short of the green, and the green falls away hard from front left to back right, so you are rewarded by driving down the right side.  On the original hole, there is a burn crossing diagonally from left to right to make getting the right angle harder -- it's only 125-150 yards off the tee, but remember, Macdonald became familiar with the hole in the 1870's, when that was a real carry.  You only actually wind up with a blind second shot [not seeing the flag] if you yank your tee shot out of the fairway left.

We've got the tilted green and the big hill [which was already a part of the site], and we needed to build a short par-4 in that position.  Instead of building a burn to nowhere, I put that little bunker in the right-center of the fairway to guard the preferred angle -- although not many people figure out that it is usually the preferred angle.  Anyway, that's close enough to a Leven for me.  After all, how many other guys can even claim to have seen the original!

As for NGLA, I've only been there a few times and didn't have a level with me either time, but my recollection was that the green was much easier to manage from the left side of the fairway than the right. 

Well David, this is the reason you should reserve judgments on courses you haven't actually seen or played.

At Lundin Links, the function of the hill is blindness or impeding a shot on the direct line to the green.  There is a substantial flat area between the bottom of the hill and the green.

At NGLA, you drive left for a look at the green, there is no hill that has anything to do with the shot.

At OM, that big mound in the left half of the green is everything.  In my opinion it's a better hole but not a true to the concept Leven. 

Now that you've broken out the blue ink, I have said all I'm going to say, you appear to be ready to bring up the big Merion guns!   

[DMoriarty]

No need to be an jerk, Bill.  I've been nothing but friendly.

I don't think I've pronounced judgment on Lundin Links, but I have read Tom Doak's description of the hole, quoted in blue above, and I tend to trust his description of the green slope.  Nothing I have written justifies your nasty tone. 

[Bill_McBride]

No need to be an jerk, Bill.  I've been nothing but friendly.

I don't think I've pronounced judgment on Lundin Links, but I have read Tom Doak's description of the hole, quoted in blue above, and I tend to trust his description of the green slope.  Nothing I have written justifies your nasty tone. 

No attempt to be nasty at all. I just think you are wrong about what constitutes a Leven but I don't want to get into an endless back and forth. 

[JC Urbina]

DMoriarty  _ Bill McBride,

If I may interject a few thoughts,

[Bryan Izatt]

Bill McBride and nasty - now there the definition of an oxymoron.

[Jim Nugent]

Bill McBride and nasty - now there the definition of an oxymoron.

David brings out the be(a)st in all of us.

[Bill_McBride]

DMoriarty  _ Bill McBride,

If I may interject a few thoughts,

That would be great! 

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

I certainly remember the green at Lundin Links differently than you do.  It's in a bit of a bowl, but it has several little mini-terraces with the front left being the highest, and the back right being the lowest, as I recall it. 

[Ted Cahill]

I just played Old Mac #13 yesterday. Pin was center- right.  I tugged a high iron approach shot to the top of the tall dune to the left. As I was thinking I was going to have to climb up there with a wedge- I happily watched my ball appear on the green rolling across to the right-  15 ft from the pin. Most satisfying shot of the 108 holes I played on this visit. Thanks Tom for designing a hole that could be so much fun.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

I certainly remember the green at Lundin Links differently than you do.  It's in a bit of a bowl, but it has several little mini-terraces with the front left being the highest, and the back right being the lowest, as I recall it. 

I don't remember it being terribly complicated but only played it twice.  More relevant to my debate with David is that I didn't see any tie in to the hill blocking the direct line to the green.  It was a short wedge shot and I guess I just paid attention to the part of the green where the hole was cut.  (I suspect this is a common failing of the non-GCA)

[JC Urbina]

Bill,

I thought I posted but a mechanical failure occurred.


DMoriarty  _ Bill McBride,

 Looking at the aerial of the Leven hole Bryan posted  you can visualize the approach shot playing out to the far right of the hole but until you see it from ground level, some people could not begin to understand the creativity of this hole.  I took a few pictures of the hole at Lundin Links, some from the tee, landing area, from the top of the dune and behind the green.

The interest in this hole has a lot to do with angles; once again it was never our intention to duplicate the hole at Lundin Links, only to use as inspiration. On every  two shot short hole I have seen that has any character  the green in my mind is the key to the hole; I know Tom liked the ridge in front and the large hill to the left.  Could we have built a canal, sure I guess we could have but it would have looked awful contrived. So we set out to make the approach into the green a challenge.  In Toms initial routing the location for the green was in a perfect setting but the green location was half the size it is now and it wasn't long enough to create the tilt and angle that it needed to be so I took a bunch of fill and created the back half of the green with ample slope. If you were comparing this green at Old Mac to the one at The National, I would say not even close.

Another piece of strategy was the strong feature I added out in front of the green that split the green into two levels.  Each level requiring a different kind of shot from different spots in the very wide fairway and in my mind always keeping the ground game as an option to a high lofted shot.

One only need to try the running shot using the front feature to get the ball around the bunker and towards the back lower pin placement, another option is to use either the back slope of the green or the large hill on the player left of the green to direct a ball to the upper level.

I think if people could stay and play this hole several times in a row they would figure out that the options to play several different shots to the same pin locations, a level of fun not seen in many two shot holes.  After all isn't that the true test of a fun golf hole, the variety that it allows you to discover. I am sure the caddies at Bandon Dunes have tried and seen almost every conceivable shot.

 I wouldn't say that the 13th hole at Old Mac is better or worse then the Leven at Lundin Links or the 17th at the National (which by the way is one of the most beautiful golf holes in the country) it is just different and a chance to use a land form that was there and then deviate from that.

  When Michael Robin releases his film on the creation of Old Macdonald he has a great HD video aerial boom shot of this hole from behind the green I think some people will get a chance to see the options from a different perspective.  I also shot some HD video for Michael of the hole at Lundin.  I hope that makes the video because it will show some of the ground perspective, he captured so many hours of footage in Scotland I will be curious how it all shakes out.

That is what Macdonald and Raynor did on every property they stepped foot on. They built a hole with a general idea and then added a slight twist.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jim,

Thanks for the posting.  It's always interesting to hear about the creative process.  Could you post a couple of your pictures from Lundin Links?  I played the hole 4 times over two days, but didn't have a camera with me that trip, and I'd like to refresh my memory.  As Bill mentioned, us non-GCA's often don't spend time studying hole designs when we play them.  Even in retrospect though, I wouldn't have guessed that that hole would have been an inspiration for a template hole for CBM and subsequently you guys. 

In respect of your quote below, what was (or were) the concepts or features of the original Leven that inspired you? Could you expand on what you mean by angles if that was it?

The interest in this hole has a lot to do with angles; once again it was never our intention to duplicate the hole at Lundin Links, only to use as inspiration.

I'd love to stay out there for a while and try different approaches to the green.  Unfortunately I think the marshalls and other players would not appreciate it.   

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks, Jim.  13 was my favorite hole at Old Mac, played it twice and wish i could have played it more.

I can see from our three examples that the "Leven" concept is really just about a short par 4 where you need to create a wide angle off the tee to play the hole well.  The hazards and contours create the need for the angle.   Being out of position provides the punishment to keep a half par hole from being too easy.   Fun stuff!

[Kalen Braley]

Well before this thread devolves into another Merion thread and the tree house starts questioning and providing "evidence" on whether or not Doak and friends actually designed this thing...

...perhaps its time to move on to #14!! 

[DMoriarty]

TomD and JimU,  Thanks for the comments and explanations.
____________________

From my perspective OM works because these guys weren't trying to closely emulate holes at NGLA or abroad, but rather were willing and able to find the underlying strategic concepts in the existing features at OM. As Jim described above, some of these these features may have been augmented and altered as necessary --not in blind adherence to the "models" but rather to make the holes more interesting, playable, and fun.  And I for one am glad they weren't forcing out of place features into the holes. OM is no place for a burn to nowhere.

I am sure some disagree, but I view their approach as similar to that of CBM at NGLA, and what CBM meant in 1906 when he said he would introduce the underlying principles "according to the nature of the land."  Otherwise how could CBM have been inspired to build NGLA's 17th by a hole at Leven reportedly playing only 240 yards with burn splitting the hole at a bias and the green tucked left behind sharp hillocks? My view obviously differs from the views of some who expected more direct physical similarities, but to me this process of finding the fundamental concepts in the land whereever possible ought to be considered one of CBM's/NGLA's greatest legacies.  In this regard, OM is a truer tribute to CBM/NGLA than it would have been had the designers tried to more closely adhere to the namesakes.   This is the point I tried but failed to make above.

I've posted this before, but the topic of how closely a golf hole matches (or should match) its inspiration always reminds me of this quote from great British golf writer Henry Leach in 1920:

The sum total of the charms and virtues of a golfing hole in its own natural surroundings depends on many things, some of them quite indefinable, which no art can transplant nor imitate. I believe that a wise architect, however closely, in fact, he may try to model one of his creations upon some famous hole elsewhere, will hold his peace about it. If he confesses, those who do not know the famous original will call him sycophantic, those who do know it will deem him profane. If he keep silence, his plagiarism will most likely never be guessed at, and his brilliant and novel design will be warmly commended on all hands.

While these designers did not "keep silence" about their inspirations, I think that Bryan, Bill, and I all agree that they nonetheless deserve commendation for creating "brilliant and novel design."

[Garland Bayley]

...
While these designers did not "keep silence" about their inspirations, I think that Bryan, Bill, and I all agree that they nonetheless deserve commendation for creating "brilliant and novel design."

+1

[Bill_McBride]

...
While these designers did not "keep silence" about their inspirations, I think that Bryan, Bill, and I all agree that they nonetheless deserve commendation for creating "brilliant and novel design."

+1

+2

Old Macdonald is my favorite new course since Pacific Dunes, and #13 was my favorite hole on the course.   "Brilliant and novel" sums it up well.

[Tom_Doak]

David:

Thank you.

When we started this project, the only part of the concept that concerned me was that no matter how we built the holes, there would be some people who insisted on comparing everything back to their favorite versions of the templates.  But, then I remembered that Macdonald had the same problem when he built The National, for a short time.  Eventually, most people forgot about that and started playing the course for what it was, and only then did it receive proper acclaim for its own merits.

I'm sure we will get there with Old Macdonald, eventually.

While I enjoy participating in the Discussion Group here, and I am generally happy to answer questions about what we've built, the one down side is that people spend too much time analyzing our work, and not enough time just enjoying it.  On a great course, half the fun is trying to figure it out for yourself.  Sadly, not many people have the time or the access to do just that, so instead of rankings based on a guy who has played the course 200 times, we get 200 votes from guys who have played the course one time, and then been influenced by what is printed in the yardage book or discussed with their buddies or here.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, this thread is about Old Macdonald, one hole at a time.  There is going to be a lot of discussion about each hole and its influences, since that was the spirit of the course from the beginning.  The one underlying motif has been the general admiration for the course and how the design made the best use of the terrain to create a really fun and interesting course.

[Scott Weersing]

I think the 13th hole is great because it is different from any other hole on the course. You judge a course by how memorable each hole is and 13 is memorable for several reasons.

One is that it breaks up a series of hard holes with 10, 11, and 12. But while 13 is easier than the previous three holes, the wide fairway gives you options as to which side you want to approach the green. The green has so many levels it would take lots of times to remember where the ball will end up. I have only played it twice. The first day is was far right and the second day it was back middle. There were lots of options but don't go long and over the road.

Another reason 13 is memorable is that it has an elevated green that is different than 7 and 14 as these two are very elevated and almost blind.

I also liked the bunkers on the left side of the fairway. They make you think that the left handside of the fairway is better but the green favors a shot from the middle or the right hand side.

It would be fun to play this hole into the wind but I played it on wind less days.

[Tim Bert]

Hole #14 - par 4 - Maiden
Back tee - 370 Yards
Middle tee - 297 yards

With over 70 yards difference between the tips and the next set of tees (at least according to the opening day card) this hole boasts the largest gap from back to middle.  Perhaps that is why it played as one of the easiest holes in relation to par for our group... we played the middle tee.  From the middle tee, the 13th and 14th present a nice back-to-back short par 4 combination.

The first thing I can tell you about the 14th hole is that my recollection is way more steep than the photos will suggest.  The 14th heads up a hill to one of the finest views of the golf course.  From the middle tee where the big hitter might think about having a go at the green, there is a large nasty bunker that can present problems.  That bunker runs up the final length of the fairway to the far left edge of the green.  It is possible to miss "forever" right on this hole and still have a reasonable shot at par here.  There is plenty of fairway grass on this hole. 

Just deeper and to the right of this hole is where the Sahara 3rd comes up over the ridge.  I can't quite recall if the 3rd fairway actually runs into the 14th or is there is rough between the two.  I am sure someone will let us know.

This is not a green to be missed short!  There is a steep fall just in front of the green that will deflect weakly struck shots away from the target.  There is a high dune, part of the ridge, long of the green.  There is a bunker carved into the face of this ridge, but there is also plenty of wispy rough with a severe incline that can help funnel the ball back onto the putting surface. 

The scene from the 14th tee reveals another large, rumpled fairway


A closer look at the fairway and bunkers


A view from the right side of the fairway looking up to the green


Short and right of the green.  The ridge is in play for back pin positions on this hole


Looking back from the left side of the green.  The Sahara is in view in the distance.


This angle from below the hole, between the 14th and 15th holes, demonstrates the steep rise to the green on the 14th.

[Ian_L]

I liked the green on this hole a lot.  I ended up with a three-putt bogey when my approach was in the middle and the pin was back right.

Is there much strategy to the tee shot?  To me it seemed that there was essentially no advantage to challenging the bunkers on the left since the hole is so short (I played the middle tee as well). However, I did not play to the back left pin, so I could be missing something there.

[Bryan Izatt]

Not to belabor the template point, but what is the principle of a Maiden?  Is it not the blind shot over a dune?  Would that concept be  demonstrated if you laid up short of the huge left bunker?  Not sure why anyone would take that approach.  Perhaps my four plays were not enough to find the shortcomings of hitting it out anywhere in the middle or even right off the tee.

Even from the middle tees, in the winter wind, there was no way for the majority to challenge the left bunker.

Again, this is no comment on the merits of this hole at OM, but I continue to wrestle with the homage part of the OM concept.

[Steve Kline]

The 3rd and 14th fairways do connect. I almost hit it there from the back tee on 14.

I thought the Maiden concept involved two plateaus in the back of the green separated by a valley. This green definitely had two back areas that were hard to access. My recollection was they were hard to access because of bunkers rather than being plateaus.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

I think they stopped mowing the connection between #14 and #3 to save a few bucks.  There might still be a little one, but it's not all fairway over there like it was when we started.

Bryan:

In truth, this is not a template hole at all.  My original plan was for this to be the Alps -- up over the ridge on the second shot, and over the big bunker and down to a green by #3 tee!  But, we had to get the tee shot for #3 around the big snag, and that didn't leave much room for this green, and then our Biarritz would have played dead north into the prevailing wind and the 17th would have been straighter, so we changed the plan.

We named the hole "Maiden" because it plays up to the biggest dune on the property, and because George B. has sometimes referred to a green with two high wings and a low center as a "Maiden" green -- you'd have to ask him why.  Of course, the original Maiden hole at Sandwich did require a blind approach over the big dune, but Macdonald himself said that he only approved of the Maiden as a feature, not as a hole.


Tim:

I try to "miss" my drive way to the right on purpose, unless the flag is tucked way to the right on the green.  For me, I think there is less chance of coming back off the front of the green from that angle, where I'd have to pull a wedge shot pretty badly, than there is of coming up short from the straight-on approach off a hilly lie.  And I've made more birdies here than on any other hole at Old Macdonald with that approach.

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