[Tim Bert]

Also, a slight miss long and left is a good spot as well. 

This option probably only applies to a limited number of players unless the wind is helping!  I'm thinking "long" given the length of the green has to be at least 230 from the middle tee and 270 from the back tee.  Though I guess it is possible for a low runner to run the length of the green given the firmness, I'd think that most of those low runners will funnel off left and perhaps find the bunker you mention before they have a chance to go long.

[Alex Miller]

From reading about the 12th, it seems as though if there is a hurting wind when I play it this weekend I will be hitting a cut driver. The only other time I've had to hit driver on a par 3 was in 50mph winds, so I'm really excited. I'm sure Tom Doak knew he was building a hole that would require a driver on a good number of days and I applaud him for it. I don't think that's really been done since the 1920-30s, and it takes a lot of, er, guts to challenge the notion that a par 3 should be played with fairway wood or less for the better player.

[jonathan_becker]

Also, a slight miss long and left is a good spot as well.  

This option probably only applies to a limited number of players unless the wind is helping!  I'm thinking "long" given the length of the green has to be at least 230 from the middle tee and 270 from the back tee.  Though I guess it is possible for a low runner to run the length of the green given the firmness, I'd think that most of those low runners will funnel off left and perhaps find the bunker you mention before they have a chance to go long.

Overall, you would be correct, Tim.  Long and left was my miss the first time I played the hole with the wind coming from the right and slightly into me.  Looking at the huge rise in the front right of the green, I took my chances and cut a 3 metal from 237 back up into the wind and tried to fly it onto the putting surface. My ball flew too far, landed on the back, and kicked long and left.  From there, it was a relatively simple pitch back up the slope to a middle hole location.

The low runner wasn't an option on this day (imo) mainly because the wind wasn't that strong and trying to run the ball up the front right portion of the green brought the chance of the ball kicking or missing to the right.  I would have to imagine though that with a stronger wind, you would be correct in that a low running shot would give the player the best chance to reach the putting surface.  From there, you would be more likely to have your ball feed off to the left than go long.

[Tom_Doak]

From reading about the 12th, it seems as though if there is a hurting wind when I play it this weekend I will be hitting a cut driver. The only other time I've had to hit driver on a par 3 was in 50mph winds, so I'm really excited. I'm sure Tom Doak knew he was building a hole that would require a driver on a good number of days and I applaud him for it. I don't think that's really been done since the 1920-30s, and it takes a lot of, er, guts to challenge the notion that a par 3 should be played with fairway wood or less for the better player.

Alex:

The hole was conceived on the premise that a far higher percentage of players will see it when it's downwind; we wanted the hole to be long enough that they wouldn't be stuck hitting a 9-iron shot to an elevated green, and they could club down enough to hit a shot that runs up the bank to the hole.

Into the wind, not many guys will play it at 230 yards or anything like that.  But it will still take a driver for many at 200 yards, and I think that's cool.  Jim Urbina is the master of that shot, as is Grant Rogers.

My one concern about the hole was that even before Opening Day, when the feedback from the preview rounds indicated that the hole was very difficult, the first reaction from management [including Mr. Keiser] was to move the tees way up, which defeats the whole premise of it.  So I hope you boys all play it from 200+ yards, no matter where they put the markers. 

If anyone asks, just tell them I said it was okay.

[Jerry Kluger]

If it is playing into a headwind will it still play like a redan?

[Tim Bert]

Tom - I agree that I don't think the right response to the issue of difficulty (in this case) is to move the hole up.  It is to play it differently and perhaps settle for bogey as you weather the tough stretch on the course.  Difficulty should be an ebb and flow and changing the distance isn't usually the appropriate reaction.

The only hole that I felt like should have had Opening Day tee box adjustments based on the conditions of the day would have been #17.  Not simply because of difficulty, but because I felt the combination of the conditions and tee placement really constrained the options from the tee.

[Richard Choi]

If it is playing into a headwind will it still play like a redan?

Jerry, I played it with a pretty stiff head wind and my 5 wood dropped out of the sky, landed just front of the green (exactly where I wanted it) and hardly moved after the bounce. That was quite anti-climatic.

[Matt_Ward]

The thing about the 12th is that missing towards the left is a better play than anything that finishes to the right of the target.

Touch to get the ball close from the position because the green is slightly higher than anything on that right side and the green does slant away.

Regarding the length dimension -- I played it downwind this past summer and had a mid-iron into it -- played from different tee positions and hit to different parts of the grreen. No easy picnic to get close when getting a frontal pin placement.

I can only imagine what a winter wind must be like. For 95% of those playing from the tips it will b full bore driver and then hoping to get the generous bounce in front and possibly staying on the putting surface.

In all the Doak courses I have played I respect Doak and Urbina for having such a hole fall where it does on the card. Too many people would be clamoring for the proverbial short iron hole and frankly Old Macdonald is served really well with the 5th hole in that regard.

Just a stellar hole that gets lost in the sauce for many. Hard for me to say wth 100% certainty, but I don't believe I have played a better long par-3 hole by the Doak team to date.

[Tim Bert]

I owe everyone hole #13.  Putting up a note to myself in order to put the pressure on to get it done by the end of the weekend.  Sorry, I've been distracted and need to get back on this or it will never get done.

[Bill Brightly]

I think hole #12 is very cool hole, just not a great Redan. Just one person's perspective, but I think the falloff right is wrong, and this hole would have been so much better if a kick mound had been included in the green complex.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

This was the best par 3 on the course, I thought. Though I thought the green was more angled from the tee than the pictures indicate; maybe I am just remembering incorrectly or the pictures were taken from a different tee. Either way, this hole plays fairly difficult. A draw into the green is certainly the play, I hit a drawn 5 iron from the back tees downwind to the center of the green; a friend who played it into a hurting wind hit 3 wood from the next forward tees and he's a semi-long hitter. This was the one par 3 out here that really lived up to my preconceived notions of what the templates should be. It also has a lot of options for play, which is certainly good.


And I hate to go back several holes, but it seems that I have arrived late to the discussion. Why is the 8th hole, the Biarritz, so short?

[Tom_Doak]

And I hate to go back several holes, but it seems that I have arrived late to the discussion. Why is the 8th hole, the Biarritz, so short?

Because the green site was mostly there already, and it would have take a bit too much fill to extend the tee back further.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

And I hate to go back several holes, but it seems that I have arrived late to the discussion. Why is the 8th hole, the Biarritz, so short?

Because the green site was mostly there already, and it would have take a bit too much fill to extend the tee back further.

Mr. Doak, my apologies, the question came off more specific than I intended. The hole fits the property perfectly. My question was more general as to why the Biarritz at Old Macdonald was so short as compared to the other Biarritz holes that exist. Was there another spot on the property where the hole could have been designed in the 250+ yard range as many of the others are? Thank you.

[Bill_McBride]

I owe everyone hole #13.  Putting up a note to myself in order to put the pressure on to get it done by the end of the weekend.  Sorry, I've been distracted and need to get back on this or it will never get done.

I LOVE #13.  Wanna guess why??   

[Tom_Doak]

My question was more general as to why the Biarritz at Old Macdonald was so short as compared to the other Biarritz holes that exist. Was there another spot on the property where the hole could have been designed in the 250+ yard range as many of the others are? Thank you.

Jamie:

No problem.  I've talked about that hole before but probably before you joined the board.

Originally the Biarritz was going to be on the other side of the dune, playing north toward #17 tee; but the wetland was in the way, and to fit the hole in there, #17 had to be more straightaway.  Jim Urbina suggested changing the routing so that we came back to the east of the dune after #16 instead.  In that version, the Alps would have been shorter, and we would have sandwiched the Biarritz between the Alps and #17.  I was always uncomfortable whether that would work ... I thought we would be trying to pound a square peg (literally) into a round hole.  It wasn't really long enough there, either.

When Mike Keiser and I were out walking and discovered the potential new green site for #7 (moving it up to the left and into the dunes), it created a disconnect in the routing, and that disconnect was solved by playing a par-3 back toward our original green site for #7.  Standing on top of the ridge, in that moment, it struck me that the ridge at the front of the green might be well suited to the Biarritz green ... which would allow us to lengthen the Alps and eliminate the other Biarritz.  I jumped at that chance.  I knew our new Biarritz would be a bit short, but I did not care as long as the hole accepted a low shot to the front of the green run through the swale to the back, which it does very well.  I am bummed out that they never use the front part of the green for hole locations, because it's a fun shot to there, too; it's almost an entirely different hole.

[Mike Benham]

I put the over/under on this topic at 22 pages, 800 replies ...

I don't recall if the bookies put an over/under on "time", we just passed the 1 year mark on this topic ...

Talk about slow play ...

[Tim Bert]

I put the over/under on this topic at 22 pages, 800 replies ...

I don't recall if the bookies put an over/under on "time", we just passed the 1 year mark on this topic ...

Talk about slow play ...

Not fair. The thread really didn't start until September. May was just a placeholder. What is fair is that it has taken me way too long to finish this up and I didn't even convert on #13 last weekend after I promised to do so. Too many distractions lately. My apologies and I will get back on it.

[Tim Bert]

The slowest photo tour in the history of GCA continues...

Hole #13 - par 4 - Leven
Back tee - 346 yards
Middle tee - 319 yards

The 13th is a nice half par hole, and a perfect follow up to the brutal stretch of 9-12.  It comes at a perfect time in the round.  The tee shot tempts the player to take the driver out of the bag and take a big swing, more so in the prevailing winter wind than in the summer wind.  The fairway is rather rumpled, but the green makes the fairway appear somewhat flat by comparison.  The lay-up shot will likely leave a crooked stance unless the ball finds a lucky finish in a flatter spot of the fairway.  The severity of the green provides plenty of challenge for the wedge left by the shorter tee shot.

The real fun of this hole when the wind is helping, is to take a hard swing at it and see what happens.  There is plenty of room to swing for the fences, though there are also some trouble spots around the green that don't make the driver option a free pass.  There is a very large mound left that looms over the approach and the green.  The grass on the mound isn't long enough to result in a lost ball, but it is enough to hang the ball up from running out toward the green in many spots.  If you catch the right bounce from the left the result should make you smile as everything on that side does funnel somewhat toward the green.  Missing with the driver to the right will result in a ball running into a bunker or at the very least a tricky short pitch over the bunkers.

The green is a joy to putt.  The predominant feature as you approach is a large hump at the front of the green.  The hump loosely defines a left and right tier that runs through most of the green.  The left side of the green and the rear part of the green are higher than the right.  As someone that has never played golf overseas, for some reason this hole felt like one of the three or four on the course where I could imagine that I was whisked away to the British Isles.  I'll be interested to see if those of you that have played Old Macdonald and have also played overseas can confirm or deny this sentiment.

From the tee - zoomed out wide


A closer look from the tee


The fun-filled 13th fairway


A look at the approach from the left side of the hole


From the front left of the green - a good look at the hump in the front of the green from this angle


Looking back at the green from behind


From behind the hole looking back
     

[Bill_McBride]

Tim, the entire course feels like you've been transported to the UK or Ireland.  It's raw and big and plays very much like a links.

I have very good memories of #13.  I followed my caddie's advice and played my approach pitch way left when the pin was middle way right.  "That's going to be really good," my caddie said, and sure enough, when we got up there the ball was a foot from the hole!   I love blind shots like that. 

Huckaby halved the hole in our four ball match by rolling a 15'er first.

[Carr Harris]

13 @ Old Macdonald is the only place in my life that I purposely played a putt to U-turn to a back left pin location. I almost made it too.
That right there tells someone about the uniqueness of this place, at least on this side of the pond.

[jonathan_becker]

Here's a shot looking back at the far left hole location.  It was fun to intentionally fly the approach a little long and left and watch it rip back down the slope.   

[Bill_McBride]

As much as I loved playing the hole, I have to wonder how it got the name "Leven."  My recollection of Leven holes is that you only get an unobscured look at the pin by playing a more dangerous tee shot, as at NGLA where you have to hit a long tee ball way left and over a vast wasteland of sand to get a look at the pin.  Playing into the safe areas leaves a blind or semi-blind second shot over an obstacle like the sandy berm at NGLA.

There didn't seem to be any of that at Old Mac's #13, so I'm curious how it got the name.

Here's the Leven hole at NGLA.   The carry to the left is pretty stout; shots to the safer center and right wind up semi-blind - all you can see is the top of the flagstick.



Here's the result of a safe tee shot that avoids the big carry down the left:

[Garland Bayley]

Leven hole from The Evangelist...

"Fairway bunker or waste area challenges golfer to make a heroic carry for an open approach to the green. Less courageous line from the tee leaves golfer with a semiblind approach over a high bunker or sand hill to the short side of the green."

From my experience of being the less courageous golfer, that is a pretty apt description.

[Bill_McBride]

Leven hole from The Evangelist...

"Fairway bunker or waste area challenges golfer to make a heroic carry for an open approach to the green. Less courageous line from the tee leaves golfer with a semiblind approach over a high bunker or sand hill to the short side of the green."

From my experience of being the less courageous golfer, that is a pretty apt description.

Of the Leven hole at NGLA yes, but little to do with the 13th at Old Mac.

Or did I miss something?

[Garland Bayley]

Leven hole from The Evangelist...

"Fairway bunker or waste area challenges golfer to make a heroic carry for an open approach to the green. Less courageous line from the tee leaves golfer with a semiblind approach over a high bunker or sand hill to the short side of the green."

From my experience of being the less courageous golfer, that is a pretty apt description.

Of the Leven hole at NGLA yes, but little to do with the 13th at Old Mac.

Or did I miss something?

My drive up the right side left me with a semiblind approach over a high bunker or sand hill to the short side of the green. Would you not agree that the right side of the green is the short side? Would you not agree that there is a high bunker fronting that? Leaving a semiblind approach? Perhaps your drive was much shorter leaving you on higher ground, thereby eliminating the semiblindness that I experienced.

Also there is a bunker left that would require a heroic carry, as the description indicates there should be.

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