A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #16 Commentary in progress

[Tom_Doak]

George B:

Thanks for being part of it.

In the whole process, though, maybe the best moment for me was sitting on the bench with you outside the pro shop at Prestwick after we had gone around it.  I can only hope that someday I will build a golf course which elicits THAT reaction from someone.

[George_Bahto]

Tom, thanks that was special, as was that entire trip to Scotland. I also enjoyed the round you and I played over the old Musselburg (racetrack) links.

Old Macdonald is a Doak/Urbina golf course!!  Brad, Karl and George were three small teeth in a much larger gear, with Mike Keiser at the helm of the large ship.

[Jim Adkisson]

I count the days until I get to play Old Macdonald next September.

Me too..but its now in hours...11:20 Tomorrow...only 29-1/2 hours to go!

[JLahrman]

I'm really enjoying the pictures and discussions, and looking forward to the KPI in March.

One question, I've noticed that on Google Earth the satellite images of Bandon are still dated from 2007 so there is no view of Old Mac.  Anyone know how often those images get updated, or if there is another satellite image option that would allow us to check out the Old Mac course?  I'd really like to check it out.

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

I agree w you -- the left side can be attacked in the manner you mentioned.

I think the hole presents two very different situations -- with the wind pattern dictating such things.

When I played the hole it was into a fairly brisk 25 mph wind. With such wind in one's face you can hit with confidence the approach because the wind will allow the shot to land much softer than if one had to handle the same shot with the wind behind the player.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt,

It is a tough shot into the wind because most players are hitting a pretty long club up the hill.

It is a tough shot downwind as described, however if a player has the guts to hit for the back right half of the green, the eighth tee is a huge backstop for the shot.

[Tim Bert]

I'm not going to the next hole until Tom Doak tells me whether or not he's ever played a Spion Kop hole.

[Pete_Pittock]

Played OM today with John Vanderboght. At my length from the greens I can hit directly towards the left bunkers without reaching them, which allows a good angle into the green. I can play a low runner without much chance of missing down the hill to the right. For the longer hitters, what was the genesis of the pot bunker next to the big bunker on the left. With the humpback fairway it it  would seem licke the better play with a shorter approach.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not going to the next hole until Tom Doak tells me whether or not he's ever played a Spion Kop hole.

So I could really put a stop to this thread that easily?  Cool!

[Tom_Doak]

P.S.  I really don't know if I have played one or not.  I do remember when Gil Hanse worked for me, he told me that there was a hole on the course he played as a kid which the locals referred to as the "Iwo Jima" hole, which I guess must have been the same thing.

[Jim Adkisson]

Playing yesterday for the first time...in a chilly drizzle but no wind to speak of...bailed out right long on the drive...had 130 in....had just watched playing partners come up short and roll down the hill...i tried to play my 140 club to compensate for the uphill, and foozled it into right fronting bunker...ended up missing my save putt...but...what tormented me for the second shot is knowing how firm the green will be, to hit an extra club, expecting it to bound off the back...but when reaching the summit, it looks as if there is a right bank towards the 5th tee that you can play into and take off the forward motion of the ball, but having it funnel back into the green.

What a view...what a fun course...the photos don't do any justice to the bold contours of the greens.

[Tim Bert]

Hole #8 - par 3 - Biarritz
Back tee - 181 yards
Middle tee - 170 yards

The 8th hole is the third par 3 on the front side, which plays to a par 34.  The odd par tends not to be noticed until one is facing the bear of a par 37 back nine and trying to make a score. Our first time around, three of the four players broke 40 on the front nine.  None broke 40 on the back nine.

The biarritz is a beautiful hole from the tee box.  It also serves as a great hole to test the effects of a brush tee against a traditional tee.  While I did not take part in the experiment that unfolded here, I will say that the results were convincing.

The area between the elevated tee and the green consists of a strip of fairway that can also be used for the 7th tee shot followed by a small valley of light rough (as much as anything can be deemed rough here) with another slight incline up to the putting surface.  The rough section has a mound on the left side which can obscure the view of a small portion of the green, but won't render any pin positions blind as long as the resort continues the practice of only pinning the rear section of the green.  Even on the front hole location, the pin would have to be pretty extreme left to be hidden from view.

The green is an example of one that isn't trying to follow the template to exact specifications as much as provide a new and fresh interpretation of a template idea.  Both the green and the swale are massive.  It doesn't feel like the swale is anywhere near as deep as the one at Yale, though perhaps it is the sheer size of the green that leaves the golfer with that impression.  Instead of deep, it feels and plays more stretched out as if a pin could be placed in the swale without being as gimmicky as it would seem at Yale.  The swale also has several back and forth movements which could influence a shot left or right.

I think it will be a shame if they don't pin the front of the green at least some of the time.  In downwind conditions as we faced, the front pin would be extremely challenging.  Almost every shot I saw struck on Opening Day, in my group three times around, as well as some groups in front of us, ran through the swale to the back portion of the green.  With the fronting incline to the green and the unpredictably bumps in the "rough" fronting the green it would be a great challenge to strike a shot with precision to the front portion of the green without having it roll through or stop short.

From the tee


Several looks at the marvelous green






The swale from the right (with the 15th green in the background)


...and from the left


A look at the hole from the 9th tee


Looking back on the green with the 7th in the distance

[Ed Oden]

Old Mac #8 is relatively short and significantly downhill - two qualities which at first glance would appear to conflict with biarritz concepts.  Yet this is easily my favorite of the half dozen or so biarritz holes I have played.  The reason is that it is the only one that actually works, notwithstanding those seemingly conflicting qualities.  That is a credit to the near perfect f&f conditions which meld as one with the design.  Two days in a row I hit a 7 iron to the front half of the green and watched it release, disappear into the swale and reappear as it climbed the slope toward the pin on the back half of the green.  I haven't been able to achieve that result on any of the longer/flatter biarritz holes I've played because the maintainance never seems to match the design intent.  For that reason, biarritz holes have always been the most disappointing template hole for me.  Old Mac restored my faith.  It really is a great design when done right.

[Bryan Izatt]

From those that have played it, do shots that land short always release back through the swale to the back tier?  In all wind conditions?  It looks to be a pretty severe down slope at the front of the green (wherever exactly that is in the pictures) so I can see shots kicking on through to the back tier.  If they do, does that detract from the design of the hole?

 

[Jim Nugent]

I'm interested to know what clubs players are hitting at #8.  7-iron to reach the back tier seems real short for a Biarritz.  Especially since the hole traditionally called for a wood shot. 

[Tim Bert]

I'm interested to know what clubs players are hitting at #8.  7-iron to reach the back tier seems real short for a Biarritz.  Especially since the hole traditionally called for a wood shot. 

Jim - I think the 170 distance from the middle tee is to the middle of the green despite the fact that they are planning to only pin the back, so the distance to the middle of the back of the green is probably more like 200.  I don't think most people will be hitting 7 iron here, though I suppose some players will be with today's distance.  I seem to recall hitting something like a 4 iron hybrid on the hole and that was with somewhat downwind conditions.  In the summer wind, which would be sort of a cross wind in your face, I don't think many will be hitting any less than a hybrid or a long iron to get the ball under the wind to the back of the green.

[Tim Bert]

Not sure why, but some of the other photos I have seen of this hole, it does not appear as open or exposed as the first of Tim's photos.  Also, does this hole play more often in a crosswind rather than downwind or into the wind?

Finally these photos are the best representation I have seen of how massive that green is.

I'd say the green site is pretty exposed, except for the ocean side of the hole where the large dune is located.

As for win, if you go to Bandon's web site there is an aerial view that also show summer and winter prevailing wind on it (perhaps someone can post it here if it wasn't posted earlier in the thread).  The winter wind is mostly helping, somewhat right to left.  The summer wind is more of a pure cross wind left to right, but probably hurts a little.

[Tim Bert]

From those that have played it, do shots that land short always release back through the swale to the back tier?  In all wind conditions?  It looks to be a pretty severe down slope at the front of the green (wherever exactly that is in the pictures) so I can see shots kicking on through to the back tier.  If they do, does that detract from the design of the hole?

 

Our shots that landed on the front of the green were rolling to the back but it was with a helping wind and most of us were playing low, running shots intentionally.

[Bryan Izatt]

Here is the wind aerial.

[Bryan Izatt]

I guess I'm left wondering what the design intent of biarritz template holes is and whether this hole exhibits the design intent of the template.  Not that it's a better or worse hole based on whether it does or doesn't.  If the conditions are generally F&F and the length of the hole and topography are such that almost all shots are going to kick through to the back tier (or beyond?) then are the swale and the front tier just closely mown approach areas?  Does that fit with the template intent?  I've read that they don't intend to pin the front tier.  Is there intent to pin the swale sometimes?  Is there some kind of shot that could work with a swale pin?  Or, a front pin?

The hole description on the web site says the best shot is to the back tier.  Is it the only shot?




"Old Macdonald #8: Par 3, 181 yards
Biarritz

Playing from an elevated tee, this green has a deep swale that will come into play for most players. The best shots will be played with a lower trajectory and land short of the swale, rolling down and through to the back third of the green. A two-putt on this hole is a feat of its own."

[Bill_McBride]

I'm not going to the next hole until Tom Doak tells me whether or not he's ever played a Spion Kop hole.

Tom Doak, I seem to recall (in spite of the 115^o heat the day we played Stone Eagle during the Kings Putter several years ago) that there was at least one par 4 with a severely uphill fairway to a semi-blind skyline green.  Does that hole compare at all to #7 at Old Macdonald?

Not as steep as the Spion Kop tee shot at #16 Crail but close!

[Bill_McBride]

I'm interested to know what clubs players are hitting at #8.  7-iron to reach the back tier seems real short for a Biarritz.  Especially since the hole traditionally called for a wood shot. 

Jim - I think the 170 distance from the middle tee is to the middle of the green despite the fact that they are planning to only pin the back, so the distance to the middle of the back of the green is probably more like 200.  I don't think most people will be hitting 7 iron here, though I suppose some players will be with today's distance.  I seem to recall hitting something like a 4 iron hybrid on the hole and that was with somewhat downwind conditions.  In the summer wind, which would be sort of a cross wind in your face, I don't think many will be hitting any less than a hybrid or a long iron to get the ball under the wind to the back of the green.

Ed Oden is a long hitter from what I've seen, so his 7-iron (to the front, see above) might be around the same carry as your 4 hybrid.  Or 5 iron.

[Terry Lavin]

I'm interested to know what clubs players are hitting at #8.  7-iron to reach the back tier seems real short for a Biarritz.  Especially since the hole traditionally called for a wood shot. 

We played it from a back tee, and, as I recall it, dead into the wind.  I hit a 3 wood, my 220 yard club and got it on the green.  Probably three putted from sixty feet, but I just don't remember.  It is an interesting biarritz given the fact that the ocean is at your back and it plays straight downhill, but the green is just a piece of artistic genius, like most of the greens at Old Mac.

[Tom_Doak]

I have watched more shots to this green than most people, and I can say with some conviction that not nearly all the shots to the front half of the green run through the swale ... Many stop in the swale, and some stop on the front, though it is not easy to do.

My intention was for the front part of the green to be pinned on occasion, precisely because it is a hard shot to stop it up there; but Mr, Keiser does not think it's a real Biarritz with the flag up front and playing 145-150 yards, so he has them pin it only in the back.  I think he was also concerned that most people would not hold the front of the green and would have to putt back up the green from the swale, which is indeed difficult to judge as it must be six or seven feet uphill.

 

[Bryan Izatt]

Does Mr. Keiser think it's not a biarritz if the pin is front because of the short yardage, or because in the original biarritz's there was no front tier?  If it is only about the yardage, could the green not have been sited 30 or 40 yards more inland to give the requisite yardage to the front tier? I'm guessing the tees can't be moved back in conjunction with the forward tee. The hole must play shorter than the "template" hole, even with the back pin, from all but the far back tee.

Do they also not pin the swale?

Just curious about the design process.  At what stage of construction was it clear that Mr. Keiser didn't care for the front pin?  Too late to add yardage if that is the issue?