[Eric Olsen]

Tom

When we played 4 last Tuesday or Wednesday, the pin was back left behind the bunker, and we were downwind easily 20mph.  I did not see anyway at all that one could hold the ball to that pin, or run it up anywhere near close to the pin, particularly if the drive went down the preferred left side, which I did (this maybe why one would want to try and stay on top of the hogsback off the drive to that pin placement, or even on the right side below the ridge.)  That's why I suggested playing it far right and hoping for some left roll onto the green.  If I remember right, I tried to hit a high cut six iron but caught the bunker, then had my bunker shot roll over the green. Easy double.  Great hole. Very tough pin location downwind.  And it was indeed perfect weather last week.  

Eric

[Tim Bert]

Hole #5 - par 3 - Short
Back tee - 160 yards
Middle tee - 134 yards

I'm going to be brief because there's not a whole lot left to say about this hole that hasn't been discussed as part of the 250+ responses and 17,000 views associated with this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33446.0/

From the tee that most visitors will play, this hole is just a wedge (or maybe a short iron in a little wind).  They key to scoring on the hole is putting your ball in the same very small section of this very large green as the flag.  That is no easy task, and one who misses will be ecstatic to get away with only 2 putts.  A birdie is very realistic here, though so is a bogey.  Most golfers should walk away with no worse than a bogey here unless: 1.  They get greedy and miss the green all-together aiming for a tucked pin OR  2. They try to get so cute with a first putt that they leave themselves in a four-putt situation.

In the fairly mild wind we faced on opening day, the hole was not showing its fangs.

From the tee


Zoomed in a bit


From a more elevated location


Elevated and zoomed out


Looking at #5 from #4


Another look from the right side


Front left bunker and the pin we faced


Several looks at the green - this one from the left shows there was actually more room between the pin and the bunker than the view from the tee suggests


From the back of the green


Looking to the right from the middle of the green.  The pin you see here is #10, which "shares" the green with #5

[Alex Miller]

I'm drooling.


Sitwell Park Sitwell Park Sitwell Park Sitwell Park Sitwell Park


Oh, sorry I'm back now. A pin on either the left or right third of the green just looks so much fun to play. I don't know enough about the contours to say about the middle pins but it looks amazing.

Curious about that back right plateau, is it pinnable? If so a flag back there might make it the toughest par 3 of this length I've seen, island holes be damned!

[Sven Nilsen]

There is no way pictures could ever do justice to the undulations in this green. 

With a middle pin, the green played like a series of switchbacks on the side of a mountain.  I watched two playing partners hit what looked like pretty good putts from the back left of the green only to see their balls do a 180 after passing the hole and rolling on for another 20 or 30 feet. I'd love for someone to do an aerial drawing of the green that explains how all of the ridges, falloffs, curves, etc. can be used to get a ball from one section to another. 

[Richard Choi]

Love, love, love this green. So big, so much movement, so many challenges.

Rob Riggs, Rob Miller, Victor (a friend of mine), and I all dropped balls at the back left and putted (all at the same time) down to the pin shown above (front left) and we all rolled it off the green (I was able to keep it on the green in the morning round from the same spot - I didn't realize how good of a putt that was!). Watching all the variations in rolls and humps while those putts were going down was entertaining to say the least.

I am not sure how many people are going to miss this green, but the bunker on the right was a BLAST to play out of. Talk about a nasty bunker, that is one tough SOB but also a great fun..

[Terry Lavin]

This is a crazy fun short hole with a crazy fun huge green that leaves the player with putts over ridges and spines that could be played to any number of different angles, depending upon the speed of the putt.  This hole is exquisite proof that a short hole can, at once, be challenging, straightforward or downright murderous.  This is one of the very best holes at Old Mac, IMHO.

[Thomas Patterson]

Has anyone been in the front left bunker with that pin position?  That one seems like it would be fun to try and blast out and use the bank to feed back down to the hole. 

[Matt_Ward]

As good as the pics are -- they don't do the hole justice until you are physically present to see firsthand.

Wonder how people view the hole versus the 5th at BT ?

[Sven Nilsen]

As good as the pics are -- they don't do the hole justice until you are physically present to see firsthand.

Wonder how people view the hole versus the 5th at BT ?

A.  OM's short generally plays longer than 5 at BT from corresponding tee boxes.
B.  BT plays like a short version of a biarritz, you need to pull the right club to either hold the front terrace, end up in the swale or reach the back plateau.  The hole is comparatively narrow, and the safe play is generally on a line to the middle of the green.
C.  OM does not have the middle swale (an area at BT that plays larger than its square footage because of the surrounding slopes).  At OM you are not only worried about distance, but your line as well.  
D.  OM is much more exposed to winds (due to its surrounds, its length and the somewhat dropshot nature of the tee ball).
E.  There's much more of an emphasis at OM of trying to end up below the hole (a factor that doesn't really matter to any pin on the first 2/3rd's of the green at BT, assuming you hit the right tier).
F.  A recovery putt (a putt that has missed the correct portion of the green) can be treacherous at both holes, but the severe back to front slope of the entire green at OM suggests to me its a much more difficult proposition.  
G.  I wouldn't want to be short of either green.
H.  Both have nasty collection bunkers that can come into play (the front left bunker at OM and the right side bunker at BT).
I.  I don't think you'll find as many putts at BT compared to OM where you're intentionally aiming away from the hole.  

[Doug Wright]

As good as the pics are -- they don't do the hole justice until you are physically present to see firsthand.

Wonder how people view the hole versus the 5th at BT ?

Matt,

I just saw you asked me this question on the other thread about Old Macdonald's 5th. Unfortunately I can'd say much about Bandon Trails' 5th because I only played it once and somehow hit the tree in front of the green and spent time extricating myself from that area instead of scoping out the green.   Having said that, I'm not sure why the tree is there and the hole might be more interesting without it. I do recall that the Trails 5th green has an interesting roll in the middle of the green where the pin was the day we played it; maybe I'd say at best it's a mini version of the Old Macdonald Short but nothing compares to the OM 5th in my experience. The massive OM 5th green is one of the most interesting I've ever seen or played. The Trails 5th green seems like the 2d green at Colorado Golf Club, which I have a little more experience with and like a lot.

[Jim Adkisson]

Bump...I recoginize that the rave reviews of hole #5 are universal...but Tim, isn't there a sixth hole?

[JC Urbina]

Tim,

If you can show me how to post a picture I will show you what the 5th hole looked like before construction.  A few during and as you have documented the after pictures.

This hole was debated amongst the consultants many times and was documented in the Brad Klein piece for Golf week.  We discussed what was important for the strategy of the hole and how to improve on the fun factor so people would not become frustrated with the fronting bunkers if we had chosen to build a few into the green.   The green  had a few hiccups during the construction and then when  Tim Weiman first saw it he told Mike Keiser on our walk around.

 "I am purposely aiming away from the flag  so that I can enjoy putting to the hole"

I have seen a lot of birdies on this green especially when the pin is in the left bowl.  Not as easy when the pin is all the way right.

[Tim Bert]

Jim A - yes there is a 6th hole but there was also a Phillies postseason... Until tonight. I will get back on it now that there's nothing else to keep me entertained.

Jim U - I use PhotoBucket. There may be a way to post pictures without signing up for some kind of host site like that but I'd there is I'm not sure what it is. If you can't get them posted or if someone can't give you better directions, I'd be happy to post any pictures for you if you'd like to email them to me. I will wait to move on to 6 until we get your photos up.

[Tim Bert]

Jim Urbina asked me to post this photo of 5.  He will provide some commentary within the next couple of days.  Thanks for sharing, Jim!

[JC Urbina]

Tim,

Thanks for posting the picture.

I just thought I would show people what Gorse looks like and how difficult it can be to visualize and create golf holes when the noxious plant is in your way. You can't walk through it like brush or trees, it's thorny to touch and impossible to see over. The excavators you see are clearing the gorse away and for the size of the equipment, still presents a difficult task.  The equipment is large and the operators are sitting about 7 feet off the ground.  Clearing this stuff can be difficult and trying to preserve the ground contours while they do it.  You can see the flag I stuck in the ground to show the center of the green for # 5.   I believe that is Bruce Hepner in the closest machine clearing away the gorse to discover green contours and a potential bunker feature if he likes what he sees.

 The other piece of equipment in the back round you see is working on the tee for the 6th hole.  A  long white pole marks the spot for the 560 yard teeing ground.   The last small pole in the distance you see over the top of the excavator is the 15th green flag for Pacific Dunes.

 It all starts with the clearing and really it's one of the most important parts of construction.  The discovery part is really where we decide what features to keep and what just doesn't work.   Some of the coolest stuff is natural and not disturbing the bumps and rolls a key component.

[Jim Nugent]

I just thought I would show people what Gorse looks like and how difficult it can be to visualize and create golf holes when the noxious plant is in your way. You can't walk through it like brush or trees, it's thorny to touch and impossible to see over.

Do you use topos to figure out the routing over the stuff? 

[Sven Nilsen]

 It all starts with the clearing and really it's one of the most important parts of construction.  The discovery part is really where we decide what features to keep and what just doesn't work.   Some of the coolest stuff is natural and not disturbing the bumps and rolls a key component.

Jim:

How much of the green contours on 5 was discovered as opposed to created?  From the picture it seems that you can make out alot of the contours that currently exist on the green.

[George_Bahto]

and this is what it looked like before Tom and Jim & company started

[JC Urbina]

Jim,

The contours are pretty accurate for the most part.  The routing is laid out on a topo map before any clearing is done or dirt is moved.  Tony Russell used his equipment to clear some paths through the gorse so we could walk the routing on a direct line.  Mike only gets comfortable with a routing after he has walked it several times.  When I was  drawing up the drainage plan I found a few areas on the map that were lower in elevation then the topo map showed.  The area below # 15 tee was a lot lower and I had to adjust the drainage plan to compensate  for the discrepancy.  The Old Mac routing was adjusted three times and one of the first maps posted on this web site years ago was  Tom's first crack at some ideas for Keiser to explore.

You have to start somewhere and the topo map is your best chance to start on the right foot.  You could walk the property for days / weeks and sketch out features and layout 18 holes but the map gives you a chance to explore options at the turn of a pencil and scale.

[Anthony Gray]

and this is what it looked like before Tom and Jim & company started

   WOW........No way I could visualize a golf hole by looking at that.

   Anthony

[Tim Bert]

Hole #6 - par 5 - Long
Back tee - 555 yards
Middle tee - 520 yards

The sixth hole is my favorite par 5 on the course.  The winter wind we faced makes this hole play with a bit of a helping cross wind.  In these conditions, the hole will be reachable in two for many, and Hell Bunker will not be an issue.  The landing area for the drive is wide open.  The left side of the fairway has several small bunkers, some rougher patches, and I believe OB on the border of Pacific Dunes, though one would need to be well left to go OB.  All of these factors force tend to force the tee shot to the right which brings Hell into the equation.  As mentioned, Hell should only be a mental factor in the winter.  It will make the approach blind, but a ball shouldn't land here for most unless very poorly executed.  Hitting the tee shot left rewards the player with a view of the green.  In the summer when a strong wind is blowing, I believe that Hell will very much be a factor for most golfers.  This should be a three shot hole in the summer.

The tee shot is interesting.  The bunkers are fine and good.  What really makes this hole, in my opinion, is the spectacular green.  On a course full of really good greens, I think I could be completely satisfied hanging around this one and playing shots for an extended period of time.  The contours are splendid, and the rear bunker begging to suck shots from the firm and fast green is a real treat.

The expansive view from the 6th tee


Zoomed in a bit, so you can see Hell looming in the distance


The right side of the fairway


Going left is no bargain as the lie becomes a gamble


Right presents its own challenges


Another look at Hell


The approach from the left side in the fairway begs for a running shot


The beautiful 6th green - you can see the hump in the rear if you look closely


A look from behind the green.  A better look at the hump, and also the ball-eating bunker positioned behind the green


One last look at the green

[Tom_Doak]

I think the sixth hole represents some of Jim's best work.  Every cool feature that is pictured was created from fill taken from the green site on #7 -- the hole was as flat as could be to start out.

As opposed to Pacific Dunes, where every green site is up against a dune feature, this one is built from fill out in the middle of nowhere ... although the gorse to the right helped it feel less naked, and the dunes far behind are a nice backdrop.  It probably works as well as it does because you can't see it over Hell bunker, so you aren't looking at the green until you are close enough to make out the details.

One of our goals at Old Macdonald was to make the course feel more like a Scottish links where bouncing the ball onto the green might be the play.  I was confident we were going the right direction once this one was finished.  Someday I hope I can build a course with a bunch of greens that work like this one.

[Tim Bert]

I think the sixth hole represents some of Jim's best work. 

+1 !!! (At least from the limited sample I've seen, which includes some pretty nice work)

Someday I hope I can build a course with a bunch of greens that work like this one.

+1

[Gary Daughters]

Tom,

Was any thought given to placing Hell Bunker maybe a little bit closer to the tee?  I'm an average to decent hitter and crashed a drive and hit driver off the deck, pretty well but kind of low, and missed clearing the bunker by a foot.  Next day the wind was so strong it wasn't even a possibility.  How would having the bunker a little easier to carry have affected the hole's dynamics -- would it have made the hole too conventional?

By the way, I hit many, many shots at Old Mac that were "another foot and perfect."  I found that to be good in the extreme.

[Tim Bert]

Tom,

Was any thought given to placing Hell Bunker maybe a little bit closer to the tee?  I'm an average to decent hitter and a crashed a drive and hit driver off the deck, pretty well but kind of low, and missed clearing the bunker by a foot.  Next day the wind was so strong it wasn't even a possibility.  How would having the bunker a little easier to carry have affected the hole's dynamics?

By the way, I hit many, many shots at Bandon that were "another foot and perfect."  I found that to be good in the extreme.

There's the Bandon wind effect for you!  Some of us in our group, none particularly long hitters, were pondering if the bunker should have been closer to the green.  I'm sure they had to strike a balance for the winter and summer, but I'd also guess they wanted many guests to have to play left or pull off a heroic 2nd shot in the summer.

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