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Tom_Doak

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #3 Commentary in progress
« Reply #100 on: September 27, 2010, 03:25:41 PM »
Jonathan:

It's a diagonal, so it depends on where you're aiming [and which tee you are playing from].  But it's not more than 200 yards unless you're on the back tee and aiming left of the tree.  It's more like 140-150 from the back tee if you are playing very safe out to the right.

jonathan_becker

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #3 Commentary in progress
« Reply #101 on: September 27, 2010, 03:34:42 PM »
Thanks, Tom.  The line left of the tree is the most intriguing.  That's the line I'm going to take.

Mike Hamilton

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #3 Commentary in progress
« Reply #102 on: September 27, 2010, 07:49:46 PM »
I'm not terribly long and didn't find this tee shot at all intimadating...at least with the summer winds.  From the second tees I found myself about 30 yards short of the green my first play with a good roll.  The second day, with what seemed an almost identical tee shot, I was over 100 yards out.  This is one of the most fun holes at Old Mac....and a lot of that is the walk up the big hill to see the bulk of the course spread out in front of you...and to hunt down your approach.

Matt_Ward

Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #3 Commentary in progress
« Reply #103 on: September 27, 2010, 08:17:44 PM »
The 3rd at Old Macdonald is loaded with details -- one of the really neat bunkers (there are obviously others) is the solitary one that guards the last spot on the left side.

Players who are tempted to milk the left side just need to realize that it lurks out of site but can easily be a major nemesis when playing the hole.

With a helping wind the green can be driven -- but it requires a bold line to do so. Push too far right and the hole itself becomes even more challenging.

Agree -- that when you make the small hike over the hill and see the remaining holes it is an awesome view.

Rob Rigg

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #3 Commentary in progress
« Reply #104 on: September 27, 2010, 11:13:59 PM »
#3 at OM is one of the great holes on the property IMO.

The tee shot into a winter wind can be heroic, the snare is majestic, the climb up the hill to the awaiting view is epic and I absolutely love the downhill approach to the green (depending where you end up).

Driver, putter is a legitimate play on this hole - and then the walk to the next is just off the back of the green.

#3 is probably one of the best "juncture" holes I have ever seen on a course - taking you from one setting to the next in thrilling fashion.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #3 Commentary in progress
« Reply #105 on: September 29, 2010, 11:21:53 PM »
Bump to push Tim on to get us on to the Hogback.

Just played 36 today at Old Mac and am looking forward to chiming in.

Its been said, but the climb up the slope on 3 and the ensuing view of what lies beyond is breathtaking.   Love the contours that can push a well struck ball closer to the hole, but can also move a slightly pushed ball further from the hole and into the rough.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Bert

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #106 on: October 04, 2010, 09:52:12 PM »
Hole #4 - par 4 - Hog's Back
Back tee - 504 yards
Middle tee - 472 yards

This hole was a beast on Opening Day.  I would imagine that one would feel like there was a realistic chance at par on typical summer wind day.  When the wind is coming at you, the conditions our group faced on June 1st, expectations change.   Let's just say that our group walked off the hole tickled to death with two pars and two bogeys in the morning round.  There were no pars in the afternoon.

The good news is that it is very realistic to expect to play this hole without being in the sand and a lost ball is highly unlikely.  There are a few sand pits around to catch a stray ball, but the average player without sufficient distance to reach in two focuses on striking solid shots and treats this as a par 5, then a one putt "birdie" 4 becomes a possibility.  The primary challenges here are the distance and the movement of the ground.

The hog's back runs diagonally from the tee, so the play to the left provides for the easiest carry but the also the longest approach to the green.  The diagonal runs at least as much north south as it does east west, creating a wide array of carry distances from the tee.  Just a guess but I'd imagine from the same set of tees the carry to the extreme left line of the fairway is 100 yards shorter than the carry on the extreme right line of the fairway.  The teeing ground is another fabulous one of the "just walk off the previous green" variety.

Once the first challenge of carrying the hog's back is accomplished, there's still a lot of work remaining.  The good news is that the fairway has a little bit of a bowl effect so stray shots will funnel a bit back toward the middle.  The bad news is that the fairway has a little bit of a bowl effect so an uneven lie for a long-iron or hybrid approach is a distinct possibility.

The fairway provides a few more humps and bumps along the way, and there is a nicely placed small bunker in the middle-right portion of the fairway short enough from the green that you need to think about whether your low running approach will find it.  One final deep swale leading up to the green, and then another massive putting surface awaits.

A view from the tee - the carry to the right side looks forever long


A zoomed in view from the tee


Walking from the tee to the fairway, a shot of a bunker that shouldn't be a problem from the tee.  If you find yourself in it, then your problems have only just begun!


First look at the full fairway and green from the left side


From just on top of the mound you see in the previous picture


A look at the bunker in the middle of the fairway.  Still a long way to go to the green.   As firm as the fairways are playing and given the amount of club the golfer will be hitting on the approach I think there is still a good chance that a well struck second shot can land here.


The green from short and left.  You can see the 5th green in the background.


Looking back on the hole from the right side of the green.  Running shots will feed into this bunker.


A look at the expansive green from behind


The beautiful 4th green site as seen from the 10th green
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 09:53:45 PM by Tim Bert »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #107 on: October 04, 2010, 10:20:36 PM »
The front left pin might be the hardest pin position on the course.  I don't see how you could stop a ball near the hole without a tremendous amount of luck or as the result of a complete accident.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kirk

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #108 on: October 05, 2010, 12:55:46 AM »
As I've said before, I like the concave swale just short of the green.  A ball that lands 25 yards short of the green may have a better chance of finishing on the green than a ball which lands 5 yards short.  I only played the hole in calm or downwind conditions, but under those conditions, the swale has great strategic value.

John Mayhugh

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #109 on: October 05, 2010, 06:58:55 PM »
As I've said before, I like the concave swale just short of the green.  A ball that lands 25 yards short of the green may have a better chance of finishing on the green than a ball which lands 5 yards short.  I only played the hole in calm or downwind conditions, but under those conditions, the swale has great strategic value.

I love that swale.

Anthony Gray

Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #110 on: October 05, 2010, 08:56:46 PM »
As I've said before, I like the concave swale just short of the green.  A ball that lands 25 yards short of the green may have a better chance of finishing on the green than a ball which lands 5 yards short.  I only played the hole in calm or downwind conditions, but under those conditions, the swale has great strategic value.

I love that swale.


  Bill Brightly didn't.


Matt_Ward

Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2010, 12:01:45 PM »
Tim:

No doubt the wind plays a huge role.

When downwind during the summer months -- strong players have to take note of the two bunkers that are roughly 125-150 yards away. They will draw balls to them with the slightest push / fade.

Superb green area no doubt -- the far left side requires a Nickllausian iron / hybrid, etc, etc to get anywhere close.

Tim Bert

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2010, 02:07:13 PM »
Hoping someone in the know can provide us with a carry estimate to eclipse the ridge on the far left side, middle, and far right side of the fairway.

Tom Jefferson

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #113 on: October 06, 2010, 02:44:07 PM »
Tim;

Uber caddy Joe Bentham oughta have the carry distances.......................CALLING JOE BENTHAM!!!!

Perfect fall conditions this week at Bandon.

Tom
the pres

JC Urbina

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #114 on: October 06, 2010, 03:18:37 PM »
Tim,

The Hog's back is a very risky shot to actually hold the ridge off the tee.  During construction after the hole was roughed shaped and ready for irrigation Mike, Bill Shean, a few guests and myself were walking the hole and when we got to the Hog's back spine I asked Bill  ( long time friend of Mike's and very successful amateur champ)  if he would actually aim for this ridge off the tee.  He mulled it over surveyed the landing area and then asked, " How wide is this landing area".  I replied around 60-65 feet in width, Bill quickly responded
 " Jimmy it's not wide enough for me to aim up here  risk not staying on top and rolling off the right edge"  I asked how wide it needed to be and his reply was at least 90 feet.  As soon as our walk was over for the day  I got on an excavator and widened out the landing area as much as I could.  It's at least 90 feet wide on the ridge now and I have held it a few times with my driver off the tee downwind.  I like the view from on top but I don't think it's necessary to hold the ridge to get par on this hole.  

The reward for holding the high ridge is an unobstructed view and a slightly down hill second shot to the green.  If you roll off to the right edge a blind second shot is your penalty.  Rolling off to the left is not as severe but a chance to be in a deep grass bowl looking up to the green your consequence.  Holding the hogs back gives the best angle into the green.

The fairway is over 270  feet wide in the landing area and it requires a 300 yard drive to carry the hogs back and get a forward bounce to the green on the down slope.

A perfect suggestion at an opportune time.




 

Tim Bert

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #115 on: October 06, 2010, 03:30:13 PM »
Tim,

The Hog's back is a very risky shot to actually hold the ridge off the tee.  During construction after the hole was roughed shaped and ready for irrigation Mike, Bill Shean, a few guests and myself were walking the hole and when we got to the Hog's back spine I asked Bill  ( long time friend of Mike's and very successful amateur champ)  if he would actually aim for this ridge off the tee.  He mulled it over surveyed the landing area and then asked, " How wide is this landing area".  I replied around 60-65 feet in width, Bill quickly responded
 " Jimmy it's not wide enough for me to aim up here  risk not staying on top and rolling off the right edge"  I asked how wide it needed to be and his reply was at least 90 feet.  As soon as our walk was over for the day  I got on an excavator and widened out the landing area as much as I could.  It's at least 90 feet wide on the ridge now and I have held it a few times with my driver off the tee downwind.  I like the view from on top but I don't think it's necessary to hold the ridge to get par on this hole.  

The reward for holding the high ridge is an unobstructed view and a slightly down hill second shot to the green.  If you roll off to the right edge a blind second shot is your penalty.  Rolling off to the left is not as severe but a chance to be in a deep grass bowl looking up to the green your consequence.  Holding the hogs back gives the best angle into the green.

The fairway is over 270  feet wide in the landing area and it requires a 300 yard drive to carry the hogs back and get a forward bounce to the green on the down slope.

A perfect suggestion at an opportune time.




 

Jim is it a pretty constant 90 feet width on the whole ridge or is it narrowing on the weaker left side?  Seems like it got wider the further right you took it but I could be mistaken.  What distance drive do you need right down the middle of the fairway to end up on top of the ridge?  Over it?

George Freeman

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #116 on: October 06, 2010, 05:36:43 PM »
Looks like if you miss the far right plateau to the right, your ball will roll down into the right fairway bunker.  Once there, it appears most people would have no chance of hitting the green in regulation.  Is that accurate?  AWESOME looking hole btw.

And the green is 270 feet wide?! AKA 90 YARDS wide?  Wow
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Tom_Doak

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2010, 06:34:28 PM »
The fairway is 270 feet wide if you include all the way down the hill right to the left edge.  The green is pretty wide, but not even half that.

I don't know how to measure carry distances since the tees are so free form.  I have driven it over the end of the high ridge with a following wind, but we probably were playing 30 yards up from the furthest back tee.  The nice thing about the Hogs Back is that if you stay on the beeline, you will get a tremendous kick forward down the fairway, but if you are hedging to the left, the ball bounces left and gets smothered by the opposite slope so you don't gain yardage.

Tim Bert

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2010, 06:41:57 PM »
The nice thing about the Hogs Back is that if you stay on the beeline, you will get a tremendous kick forward down the fairway, but if you are hedging to the left, the ball bounces left and gets smothered by the opposite slope so you don't gain yardage.

You mean the nice thing for guys that don't play a left-handed fade.

JC Urbina

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #119 on: October 07, 2010, 12:43:14 AM »
Tim,

From where they usually put the green tee it starts about 200 and runs to 260 to stay on the ridge.  The width varies from North to South with a few undulations added for extra measure.   It does narrow as you observed.

 The reason I really like the hole is the valley it sits in after you have walked over the Hogs back.   Very natural looking and walking just West and below the big spine dune you get a sense of the size of dunes that were created from constant wind blowing off the ocean depositing the last of the sand particles along this ridge over countless years. 

Patrick Kiser

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #120 on: October 07, 2010, 01:31:40 AM »
So Tim points out the hogback feature on this hole essentially being the diagonal ridge in the fairway that would kick balls further right and Jim backs this up.

Could the section just short of the green that creates a swale and then rolls onto the green be the hogback (in the form of a flattish plateau)?

Both?

Am I over thinking this?

I'm asking because from Tim's pics it makes me think of the Biarritz like green somewhat with the hogback (Fishers, Yale, NGLA?) ... but that would be a par 3.

David provided the following quote from the Biarritz thread a while back.  David did a nice side by side of a few hogback par 3's to illustrate the part short of the green.

1913 passage from Whigham:

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green. Under normal conditions the hole has to be played with what is now known as the push shot, a low ball with plenty of run, which will land short of the dip and run through it on to the green. A drive with a longer carry is apt to land in the dip and stay there. But the push shot must be very straight, otherwise it will land on one side or the other of the hog's back and break off into a bunker. This is the ninth hole at Piping Rock."

“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Jim Adkisson

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #121 on: October 08, 2010, 07:12:55 PM »
2 questions:

1...Is the hogs back similiar in a way to the dune crossing at BT#4 where a shot that crosses at the shortest distance (left) typically will run into a bad lie (bunker at BT4)...whereas a bolder line will either reward quality execution with a fabulous kick forward or make it a blind/nasty sidehill lie for not executing?

2...The photos of the green look like a running shot through the swale on the left side will get ground fade onto the green whereas one on the right side will end in right bunker.  Am I more delusional than usual?

Eric Olsen

Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2010, 08:36:18 PM »
Matt Ward

I found the far left pin on 4 to be impossible to get close to downwind.  The only smart play was actually to the right side of the green to catch the slope and send the ball left to within 20 or 30 feet.  I did not see anyway that you could get close to that pin in the downwind situation that we had.  This is another example of learning both how to play the course as well as how they set it up for people.

Anthony Gray

Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #123 on: October 09, 2010, 09:39:01 AM »


  For the average player it is a par four and a half.Hard to get there in two.

  Anthony


Tom Jefferson

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Re: A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #4 Commentary in progress
« Reply #124 on: October 09, 2010, 10:05:58 AM »
Eric;

Your comment in reply #128 is curious, as the slope of that green is strongly from left to right, i.e, there is no feature that will kick the ball up the hill from right to left.  Just the opposite in fact.

Anyway, it is a demanding play into that green and especially to the left side.  We played yesterday, into a strong southerly wind, with a back left cup location.  One player hit his approach just left of the green to within about 25 ft. from the cup......play into the wind allows for that.

I hit a PW into the right side and putted up the hill, happy to card a 5.

Beautiful fall weather here.
the pres

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