A Fan's Photo Tribute to Old Macdonald - Hole #16 Commentary in progress

[John Kirk]

The 10th hole is very difficult for me.

From the back tees, the bunkers are right in my landing zone.  The distance between the middle and left bunkers is too small to consider trying.  I aim right and try to hit it on the plateau between the center and right bunker.  If I hit a weak push/fade, I fall down below the right bunker and have about 225 yards left.  If I hit a solid drive, I might have 190 yards left, which would call for a long iron which bounces up onto the green, i which case I would left of my intended target and let the slopes kick it right.

From the back tees, even downwind, the play may be a 3-wood off the tee, and play it with two fairway woods.  Really tough.

I've only played two Bottle holes, and though #10 at Old Macdonald has its charms, #8 at the National Golf Links is one of the greatest golf holes I have ever played.

[Jim Adkisson]

I've only played two Bottle holes, and though #10 at Old Macdonald has its charms, #8 at the National Golf Links is one of the greatest golf holes I have ever played.

John, Happy New Years to a fellow Oregonian...wouldn't you consider #5 on Bandon Dunes a "bottle"?

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

When we started back to work on the last few holes at Old Mac, I was concerned that the finishing stretch of 15-16-17-18 would break the backs of most golfers.  The shortest of those four holes is 440 yards!

However, I got comfortable with it, because there are two par-five holes in the four, and neither the sixteenth nor the eighteenth is really as hard as it looks at first glance, with their huge, mostly gathering greens.  Indeed, in the opening week and before the wind came up strongly, I made a birdie at 16 and had putts for eagle at both 15 and 17 [and actually made one of them at 17!].

Thirteen and fourteen are also birdie holes.  However, offsetting that, I would totally agree that the stretch of 10-11-12 is the toughest on the course, and indeed one of the toughest I've ever had anything to do with.  But how could it be much different when you route the Bottle hole, the Road hole and the Redan back-to-back??

In spite of all that, I've had people opine that we chickened out on #11 by not making the Road green more penal at the back, and that #12 is not a true version of the Redan, even as hard as it is.   

[Gary Daughters]

Eagle putt at 15?  Tom, I thought you're a self-professed "average" golfer?

The green at #10 is maybe my favorite green out there.  From the fairway it looks like a blob, just raw.  Very tough to hit, and if you do you feel as though you've accomplished something.  

[Tim Bert]

Tom - I think the finishing sequence is difficult for sure, but no harder than the finishing 4 at Bandon Trails.  And that's comparing a winter wind at Old Macdonald to a summer wind at Bandon Trails.  I think with the summer wind at Old Macdonald, the final stretch won't be easy to play, but the distance will be less intimidating as it should be helping on the last two.  I birdied #16 my first time around, which was a nice surprise mixed in with the rest of my dismal finish.  I think it is fine for the finishing stretch to be tough as long as it is still fun and the only one that didn't nail the fun factor for me was #17 because of the demanding tee shot into a strong wind.  Once I got to the fairway and dropped after picking up from my lost balls #17 was fine.

While I'm not sure I ever thought "they chickened out" I will say I was disappointed with the back of the Road green as well as the "hotel" just because I haven't had the opportunity to play the original and the few templates I've played (Yale for instance) did nothing for me to capture what I imagine is going on at the original.  The 11th at Old Macdonald is a fine hole on its own and will be demanding in a summer wind, but I don't think it gives me a sense for playing the original either.  I didn't feel like I needed to challenge the "hotel" - there seemed to be plenty of room left off the tee and with the more generous landing area on and around the green back there on the left side the bunker didn't have the fear factor for me that I hoped it might. 

[Tom_Doak]

Eagle putt at 15?  Tom, I thought you're a self-professed "average" golfer?

The green at #10 is maybe my favorite green out there.  From the fairway it looks like a blob, just raw.  Very tough to hit, and if you do you feel as though you've accomplished something.  

Gary:

I am currently an 11 or 12 handicap, which is still quite a bit better than average.  At my best I was a 4 (briefly), which is still quite a bit worse than Tour players.  As to reaching par-5 holes in two, it helps a lot to have fescue fairways and a bit of wind, and to not play from the tips.  I made an eagle on the 14th at Barnbougle when we were there last month, one tee up from the back ... downwind it was a driver-7 iron even for me, at about 510 yards!

[Cristian]

Although I am a great Old Mac fan, and a fan of the green, I do not get this hole. The length of the hole forces the use of driver, but the corridors between the bunkers are so narrow that for me it is just aim for the middle, hit and hope.

If I am in the bunker I can probably still reach in 3, but if I lay-up short of the bunkers, I will need 3 anyway to reach the green, unless I play for the adjacent fairway on the right as my playing partner did.

I feel the percentages of the strategies on this hole only work for the straightest of drivers. If the hole would be shorter (or longer as a short par 5) the lay-up might come into play for me, but now it is just aim for the middle and hope for the best, which is admiitedly really no strategy at all.

I am a 11 handicap hitting my drives average 210-240 yds, so I am not very good or very long, but there is a lot of players out there of similar ability I should think. Or is this one of the holes geared more towards the lowest handicappers?

[Doug Wright]

Hole #10 - par 4 - Bottle
Back tee - 465 yards
Middle tee - 440 yards

Welcome to the back nine at Old Macdonald.  The par on the back nine is 37 compared to the front nine par of 34.  In addition to par being 3 strokes higher on the back nine, it may well be harder relative to par.

The tenth is a long par 4 that most golfers will play as a par 5 in the winter wind due to the length of the hole and a hurting wind.  In the summer, the hole will become more reachable in two shots for many players, but a few complications arise.  First, the fairway bunkers that create the bottle effect will be more in play.  The bunkers, while perhaps not the most fierce on the course, are steep enough in spots be worth a full shot penalty when the length of the approach is considered.  Second, when the approach is played downwind, as has previously been discussed, the shot must land short of the green to prevent a potential disaster long.  Landing short introduces uncertainty as there is a good deal of movement in the land short of the green.

Most players would walk away pretty satisfied with a 5 on this hole, which becomes one of the compounding issues for the moderately skilled golfer on the back nine.  There are at least 5 holes on the back nine where bogey will satisfy you.  That doesn't leave much margin for error for the player counting beans.  You are better off just enjoying your match here.  When that ends prematurely, then just enjoy the remarkably fun array of shots you get to play.

Tim I didn't even realize that OM was 34-37 till I read this... I think it's because I was enjoying the course (even playing badly) and not worried about score/par etc. You comments about being satisfied with bogeys on the back nine is spot on, at least on 10-11 and maybe 12. I think my stroke average on 10-11 through 3 plays is about 5.7. One of the great things about OM (which probably should apply to the playing of other courses but for some reason doesn't--wonder why?) is if you don't stress about score the fun factor just escalates. For example, I've never had so much fun four putting as I did at #8, where I could never seem to escape the swale...

 

[Tom_Doak]

Cristian:

I think on #10 we probably just didn't build the second tee far enough forward for a lot of players to be able to carry the center fairway bunker.  From the back, with the summer wind, it really doesn't play that long for a longer hitter.

I kind of think of 10 and 11 as a pair; one of them is going to be a bogey hole into the wind, but then the other should be downwind and reaching the green should not be the issue.  Still, they are both difficult greens, so there are no easy pars to be had in this stretch.

[George Freeman]

Another look at the approach and the many wrinkles in the land

Was the depression just short of the green in the  hillside (just down/right of the flag in the pic above) originally a bunker?  It appears that there might have been one there at one point.

Cool looking feature nonetheless!

[John Mayhugh]

One that shows some of the green contour.  You can just make the flag for the 5th in the distance.  That would be one LONG putt.

[Rob Rigg]

Charlie - Playing out right on 10 can be a very good strategic option if the grass isn't too long - especially if the pin is on the left side of the green. If you can fly the ball onto the front it will release to the back and the ridge that you can see in the photos above can help act as a backstop. I think the green is steeper on that side so running a shot up could be tougher. It's a lot better out there than in one of the fairway bunkers and the only time I made par on the hole was from that side.

10 is a toughy - especially in the winter - in fact, 9 through 12 is a challenging run of holes with a winter wind (and no push over during the summer).

[jonathan_becker]

As many have already stated, #10 starts the toughest 3 hole stretch on the course.  In fact, 10-12 might be the toughest 3 hole stretch I've ever played.  The first three holes you just need to hold on....#13-15 is where you can pick up a shot or two....#16-18 isn't too tough either as you can pick up a shot on 17.  Start #10 with a par or maybe even a bogey and you're off and running!

Here's a look at one of the fw bunkers


This was my missed approach from my first play.  I landed on the front right portion of the green and ended up here.  A very popular place I would imagine.


Another shot looking back towards the green on #5


Some green contours looking from the right edge of the green

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:

Any chance we can get you to elaborate on the preferred line off the tee?  The caddy I mentioned said you had told him the play was always left.  Standing on the tee, it was hard to wrap one's mind around trying to fly or squeeze it by the bunkers on that side.  But once you start thinking about the approach, I can certainly see how a shot from the left (taking the back left bunker out of play) could be preferable.

Thanks,

Sven

[David Botimer]

As for this caddy, there is no way I'd say left of the middle bunker is "always" the play.  It depends on the skills / length of the player.  If I have a short-ish hitter who plays a left to right ball flight, he is getting aimed at a target which will put him right of the middle bunker.  The stretch of 10-12 is almost as hard as the closing stretch at Bandon Trails, and for a LOT of golfers, getting through it playing bogey golf is a good score.  The best route to bogey thus is right of center off the tee.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm wondering what is a bottle and why is the 10th at Old MacDonald a bottle. For that matter why is the 8th? at NGLA a bottle? The bottle hole at NGLA is essentially a dual fairway affair. Whereas, if the 10th at Old MacDonald is a dual fairway, I don't see it. The bottle hole at NGLA has a bunker on the line from the wider fairway to complicate the approach. No such feature at Old MacDonald.

So I repeat, why is it a bottle?

[Mike Hamilton]

I'm wondering what is a bottle and why is the 10th at Old MacDonald a bottle. For that matter why is the 8th? at NGLA a bottle? The bottle hole at NGLA is essentially a dual fairway affair. Whereas, if the 10th at Old MacDonald is a dual fairway, I don't see it. The bottle hole at NGLA has a bunker on the line from the wider fairway to complicate the approach. No such feature at Old MacDonald.

So I repeat, why is it a bottle?

Garland, the three bunkers starting on the left through the middel of the fairway create a diagonal hazard at Number 10 at OM (which I have played a couple of times) that does roughly approximate the hazard faced off the tee at the NGLA 8th (which I haven't but have seen photos) although their line is more broken.  But on OM #10 golfers do face a narrowing fairway in the direction of the drive and a better approach from left (theoretically for me) than from the right.  The right side tumbles into a depression which leaves you if my memory is correct about 180 yds significantly uphill, semi blind.  I think gaining the other side of the fairway gives you a much better chance at finding the green.

As noted...this is tough hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:  What Mike said.

The undulations in the landing area on #10 are all natural and (along with those in #13 fairway) are some of the coolest on the course.  I just couldn't bring myself to destroy all that to build a more rote version of the "Bottleneck" bunkers.  We did the bunkers on a diagonal line where they fit into the topography, but did not put them on an unbroken line.

I still think this hole would be much less controversial if the middle tee was up 30 yards.

[Scott Weersing]

So would no. 10 be considered a 4.5 par hole? I know we can't have 0.5 in a par but could there be different pars depending on length and time of the year?

Or could it be considered a par 5 hole? That would make a par of 72 but then it would be 34-38.

[Garland Bayley]

Perhaps #10 with its demands on driving is suitably placed in a course that does not make great demands on driving.

[Scott Weersing]

Only two more weeks until I travel to Bandon and play Old Mac. It has been three years since I visited the resort and I am looking forward to my four days there.

I am not expecting to score very well at Old Mac after reading this thread. It would seem that hitting the greens will leave you lots of long putts that could end up being three putt greens. Oh well. I hope the weather stays as good as it has been the last two weeks.

[JC Urbina]

Scott,

I think you will be surprised on the putting.  When you have the right combination of pin settings, putting can be a breeze, no pun intended.

Off the top of my head.
# 1 center lower is a easy putt
# 2 lower right just behind the Strath bunker
# 3 front left bowl
# 4 front right swale
# 5 left wing, lower bowl just behind the bump.

  and so on.  if one were to set the pins without the required rotation for wear and tear I think you would be surprised how receptive some of the greens really are.  As long as your in the general area.


Hope you enjoy it.

[Carl Rogers]

Only two more weeks until I travel to Bandon and play Old Mac. It has been three years since I visited the resort and I am looking forward to my four days there.

I am not expecting to score very well at Old Mac after reading this thread. It would seem that hitting the greens will leave you lots of long putts that could end up being three putt greens. Oh well. I hope the weather stays as good as it has been the last two weeks.

Scott,
Agreed.
I see myself constantly fooled on approach shots, depth perception, the amount of roll & etc ...

[Scott Weersing]

Scott,

I think you will be surprised on the putting.  When you have the right combination of pin settings, putting can be a breeze, no pun intended.

Off the top of my head.
# 1 center lower is a easy putt
# 2 lower right just behind the Strath bunker
# 3 front left bowl
# 4 front right swale
# 5 left wing, lower bowl just behind the bump.

  and so on.  if one were to set the pins without the required rotation for wear and tear I think you would be surprised how receptive some of the greens really are.  As long as your in the general area.


Hope you enjoy it.

Thanks for your perspective. I hope to take the time to study and memorize the greens like you have.

I think a great course is set up with a variety of pin placements. Some hard and some easy. And because this is a Doak/Urbina course, there are preferred places in the fairways to be in order to hit into the harder pin placements. Despite my drives to the wrong side of the fairway, I know the course will be fun and memorable.

[Tim Bert]

Hole #11 - par 4 - Road
Back tee - 445 yards
Middle tee - 399 yards

The 11th, as at least one participant has suggested, is a nice back-to-back combo.  In the winter wind, the 10th will play deadly long, but the 11th will play much shorter.  In the summer, the opposite will be true.  Either way, a combined 9 on the two is a nice accomplishment for all but those with the lowest handicaps.  In our group, only one player accomplished this feat.  He did so in both of his rounds.  It is probably no coincidence that he was a 4 handicap and the rest of us weren't.  

The Road was quietly disruptive.  9 months later, I'm not sure I can recall exactly why we all made bogeys and doubles.  On the surface, it appears that the "hotel", which is represented by gorse, doesn't replicate the original's fear factor (I have not played The Old Course, so equal parts speculation and what I've heard secondhand).  First off, I'm not sure that in a summer wind, I'd even attempt to carry the gorse as it felt a long way off from even the middle tee.  Perhaps just an illusion.  Second, there seems to be ample amounts of space left, including left of the fairway where the "rough" is rather thin and maintained in a playable manner.

What a sucker, you are all thinking.  He bit on the play left strategy and the pin was tucked on the back portion of the green.  Everyone knows that is the fool's play... and he's wondering why the group didn't par the hole.  Except, I can't imagine that either 1) the bunker or 2) the back portion of the green are nearly as severe as #17 at TOC.  The back of the green was surprisingly roomy in my opinion.  And the bunker wasn't all that imposing.  My failing, I believe, was actually playing the approach shot too conservatively (at least with respect to the bunker) and putting my approach OVER the green where getting up and down was no easy task for me.  I think next time around, I would attack the bunker and take my chances.  In a sense, the summer wind might actually be helpful on the approach as the firm and fast conditions combined with a strong "helping" wind in the winter, make the green more difficult to hold.

I do believe the hole is probably nasty in the summer, but in the winter it is more of a silent killer.  All things being equal, I think I'd rather face the two holes back to back in the summer wind than in the winter wind.  Perhaps that's only because I've witnessed the difficulty of the winter wind firsthand.    

Near the back tee.  At nearly 450 the hole is a monster from here in any wind


More user friendly tee box


Left side of the fairway and rough


Perhaps I did not give enough credit for how the movement in the fairway complicates the approach!


A closer view of the approach - the rather large shelf on the front part of the green can be seen here


OK, so the bunker looks more imposing imposing than I recall.  10 years later, the pain of my last kidney stone has slowly diminished in my mind as well


Nah, I was right.  It is bigger than one might expect, but not too deep


A look at the green wrapped around the bunker


I don't have a good photo of the rear portion of the green.  I'd appreciate it if someone has one they can add.