[Jim_Kennedy]

Charlie,
There are some major differences in chisels. To make it short, harder steel keeps an edge longer, softer steel can yield a finer edge when sharpening. Damascus (folded)steel chisels are the top-of-the-line, they're like a mini-Samurai sword.

As for golf clubs, if the same steel was used in the casting method it would feel like a forging and they'd be hard to tell apart. That's not the case as forgings use softer, carbon steel and castings use harder, stainless alloys.  

[Kevin_Reilly]

His Titleist blades were Mizunos with a Titleist brand on them.

Yikes, I thought that internet myth had been killed a long time ago.  It's arisen from the the grave like a zombie. 

Yes.  So many internet rumors in 1997.....

Uh, you may not be aware, but there have been equipment-focused boards on the internet for a long time...I have been participating on them (and their successors) since 1995.  I came across Tom Huckaby on one of those boards back then, and of course a lot of us started on the many predecessors to GCA back in the mid-late 90's.  These were discussion boards, not newsgroups (though groups like rec.sports.golf existed even farther back).

Not a good idea to use the "rolling eyes" smilie when you apparently don't know the subject matter.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Wear earplugs and hit two different heads that otherwise appear similar in shape and you likely won't be able to tell the difference in "feel".  "Feel" with irons is more auditory than anything else.  There are some fine blades that you would have no clue are cast.  The ball is not on the clubface very long, so the "feel" that players experience is their interpretation of the sound.

But since the sound at impact is very important (for both irons and drivers), it is not something to ignore so a preference for a forged "feel" can be important even if it is likely a preference for a sound.

[JC Jones]

His Titleist blades were Mizunos with a Titleist brand on them.

Yikes, I thought that internet myth had been killed a long time ago.  It's arisen from the the grave like a zombie. 

Yes.  So many internet rumors in 1997.....

Uh, you may not be aware, but there have been equipment-focused boards on the internet for a long time...I have been participating on them (and their successors) since 1995.  I came across Tom Huckaby on one of those boards back then, and of course a lot of us started on the many predecessors to GCA back in the mid-late 90's.  These were discussion boards, not newsgroups (though groups like rec.sports.golf existed even farther back).

Not a good idea to use the "rolling eyes" smilie when you apparently don't know the subject matter.

Not a good idea to think that because YOU spoke of it on an internet board in 1997 that it must be an "internet" rumor (that is, a rumor generated and spread through the internet) and that's where whomever speaks of it got their information from.

As you probably know, it was widely discussed by those of who were, at the time, in the industry.

[JC Jones]

Wear earplugs and hit two different heads that otherwise appear similar in shape and you likely won't be able to tell the difference in "feel".  "Feel" with irons is more auditory than anything else.  There are some fine blades that you would have no clue are cast.  The ball is not on the clubface very long, so the "feel" that players experience is their interpretation of the sound.

But since the sound at impact is very important (for both irons and drivers), it is not something to ignore so a preference for a forged "feel" can be important even if it is likely a preference for a sound.

While I agree with you that "feel" has an auditory component.  The studies have shown that feel is also comprised of vibration and that vibration plays a larger role in "feel" for full swing shots and that sound plays a larger role in "feel" for putting or short game shots.  So, dismissing "feel" as entirely auditory is not correct (save for short game shots where there isn't enough impact to create substantive vibrations). 

[Kevin_Reilly]

Yeah, it was an offline rumor and an Internet rumor.

"What's in Tiger's bag" was discussed more than just about any other equipment topic, except maybe "cast vs forged".

But, my interest in the topic peaked a long time ago, so I'll let you have the last word.

[Richard Choi]

While I agree with you that "feel" has an auditory component.  The studies have shown that feel is also comprised of vibration and that vibration plays a larger role in "feel" for full swing shots and that sound plays a larger role in "feel" for putting or short game shots.  So, dismissing "feel" as entirely auditory is not correct (save for short game shots where there isn't enough impact to create substantive vibrations). 

You will not be able to tell apart the "feel" or "vibration" of a club with a same shape whether or not it was forged or cast. But you may be able to hear the difference in sound.

[Kevin_Reilly]

The studies have shown...

What were these studies, who did them, and how were they conducted?

[JC Jones]

The studies have shown...

What were these studies, who did them, and how were they conducted?

There have been several.  Here is are some links to some:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WM3-4F29HRB-1&_user=10&_origUdi=B6WM3-4FCRFFS-2&_fmt=high&_coverDate=07%2F06%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_orig=article&_origin=article&_zone=related_art&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4da010d6a773499cb86c83951d17c859

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WM3-4FCRFFS-2&_user=10&_origUdi=B6WM3-4F29HRB-1&_fmt=high&_coverDate=11%2F04%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_orig=article&_origin=article&_zone=related_art&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ecfe1e8d1141456c4f9e979da677cbbc

http://business.highbeam.com/624/article-1G1-144715952/assessment-impact-sound-golf-putting

There was also a study by the Hocknell, Jones Rothburg trio in the mid-90's that I cant seem to find but is the one that was referenced a lot when I was learning about this stuff.

[Lester George]

I have an original set of 1967 MacGregor VIP's (2-wedge) including the woods (1,3,4 with the aluminium inserts.  At one time a classic club collector wanted to pay me a bunch for them to resell to Payne Stewart.  They belonged to my father and growing up I would occasionally hit them.  I still vividly remember a shot I hit with the 4 iron that was the sweetest feeling I have ever experienced.  I look at those clubs today and I wonder if I could even get the 4 iron airbourne. 

Lester

[Jim_Kennedy]

It's really pretty simple. If feel had no link to vibration you wouldn't be seeing all the vibration dampeners that are built into heads  (especially cast), shafts, and grips.

[Charlie Goerges]

Why the perceived separation of vibration and sound. Sound is vibration. I think it would be hard to separate out the vibrations you feel and the vibrations you hear.

[JC Jones]

It's really pretty simple. If feel had no link to vibration you wouldn't be seeing all the vibration dampeners that are built into heads  (especially cast), shafts, and grips.

Sensicore shafts come to mind immediately.

[JC Jones]

Why the perceived separation of vibration and sound. Sound is vibration. I think it would be hard to separate out the vibrations you feel and the vibrations you hear.

Yes, but we are talking about different sensory responses to different types vibrations.  I think it is generally understood that feel is a composition of vibration and sound with vibration playing a larger role on the full swing and sound playing the larger roll in the short game.

[Jim Eder]

Lester,

I am envious, please don't ever get rid of them.  WONDERFUL clubs!!!

[Lester George]

Jim,

Twenty years ago I was offered $2,000 for them.  Now that my father is gone, I probably won't sell them anytime soon.

Lester

[Michael Moore]

When Tiger signed his first Titleist contract he was playing a mixed set of Mizuno MP-14 and MP-29s.  His Titleist blades were Mizunos with a Titleist brand on them.

JC -

Are you saying that in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 and most of 2002 Woods was playing Mizuno clubs with "Titleist" on them?

How did Mizuno feel about all this? Did they get a few bucks for their troubles?

[Jim Eder]

Lester,

That doesn't surprise me. You have very special clubs for 2 reasons, I am glad they are in great hands.

[JC Jones]

When Tiger signed his first Titleist contract he was playing a mixed set of Mizuno MP-14 and MP-29s.  His Titleist blades were Mizunos with a Titleist brand on them.

JC -

Are you saying that in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 and most of 2002 Woods was playing Mizuno clubs with "Titleist" on them?

How did Mizuno feel about all this? Did they get a few bucks for their troubles?

No, no idea and no idea, respectively.

Titleist obviously had forging capabilities and who knows how long it took them to come up with a club that Tiger wanted to play.  My guess is not long. 

[Richard Choi]

There have been several.  Here is are some links to some:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WM3-4F29HRB-1&_user=10&_origUdi=B6WM3-4FCRFFS-2&_fmt=high&_coverDate=07%2F06%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_orig=article&_origin=article&_zone=related_art&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4da010d6a773499cb86c83951d17c859

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WM3-4FCRFFS-2&_user=10&_origUdi=B6WM3-4F29HRB-1&_fmt=high&_coverDate=11%2F04%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_orig=article&_origin=article&_zone=related_art&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ecfe1e8d1141456c4f9e979da677cbbc

http://business.highbeam.com/624/article-1G1-144715952/assessment-impact-sound-golf-putting

There was also a study by the Hocknell, Jones Rothburg trio in the mid-90's that I cant seem to find but is the one that was referenced a lot when I was learning about this stuff.

JC, by reading the Abstract, there is nothing here that says that Sound is NOT the dominating factor in "feel" of a golf club.

The first study you quote is about defining what is a "solid feel". But since the test was not conducted with "sound-blind" testers, what they described as "feel" was nothing more than reaction to the sound they were hearing - which is pretty much what the second study you quote is saying.

I have still yet to see any study that shows that golfers can feel the difference between forged and cast clubs without the aid of sound.

[JC Jones]

There have been several.  Here is are some links to some:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WM3-4F29HRB-1&_user=10&_origUdi=B6WM3-4FCRFFS-2&_fmt=high&_coverDate=07%2F06%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_orig=article&_origin=article&_zone=related_art&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4da010d6a773499cb86c83951d17c859

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WM3-4FCRFFS-2&_user=10&_origUdi=B6WM3-4F29HRB-1&_fmt=high&_coverDate=11%2F04%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_orig=article&_origin=article&_zone=related_art&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ecfe1e8d1141456c4f9e979da677cbbc

http://business.highbeam.com/624/article-1G1-144715952/assessment-impact-sound-golf-putting

There was also a study by the Hocknell, Jones Rothburg trio in the mid-90's that I cant seem to find but is the one that was referenced a lot when I was learning about this stuff.

JC, by reading the Abstract, there is nothing here that says that Sound is NOT the dominating factor in "feel" of a golf club.

The first study you quote is about defining what is a "solid feel". But since the test was not conducted with "sound-blind" testers, what they described as "feel" was nothing more than reaction to the sound they were hearing - which is pretty much what the second study you quote is saying.

I have still yet to see any study that shows that golfers can feel the difference between forged and cast clubs without the aid of sound.

Richard,

The abstract of the first study says"

Ultimately, a reduction in the total rms vibration level was found to correlate well with the players’ subjective descriptions of ‘pleasant’, ‘solid’, ‘lively’ and ‘soft’ feel.

Meaning there is a correlation between "feel" and vibration. 

I have yet to see any study that shows that golfers CANT feel the difference between forged and cast clubs without the aid of sound.

[Tim Martin]

When I played Pings I noticed my swing got sloppy because I could get away with it.  I practiced less and gradually my game was poorer. With my forged irons I had to get my swing back into shape, had to hit more balls, and I ended up getting that sound back which I just love. Maybe it is academic and maybe my thinking is total nonesense but I just feel more true using blades and feel my swing is better and I am able to play better.

This quote is actually a heck of an endorsement for Ping irons. Ping irons-"Swing sloppy and get away with it" It would also infer that if you are having an off day Ping is the club you want in your bag. It seems a stretch that someone`s game would get poorer because they had found a set of irons that were easier to hit.

[Richard Choi]

JC, read that sentence again. It says "players’ subjective descriptions of ‘pleasant’, ‘solid’, ‘lively’ and ‘soft’ feel." How do you know that those players are not responding to the sound and to the actual vibration itself? Because the second study says that feel is mostly sound.

Unless you do a test with "sound-blind" testers, you don't know if you are measuring actual feel or feel based on sound.

[JC Jones]

JC, read that sentence again. It says "players’ subjective descriptions of ‘pleasant’, ‘solid’, ‘lively’ and ‘soft’ feel." How do you know that those players are not responding to the sound and to the actual vibration itself? Because the second study says that feel is mostly sound.

Unless you do a test with "sound-blind" testers, you don't know if you are measuring actual feel or feel based on sound.

I read the sentence, I get what it means.

Are you saying that golfers cannot feel vibrations or that golfers can't feel the difference between the vibrations of a forged club and a cast club?

Are you also then saying that despite giving off the same vibrations they give off different sounds?

To what do you credit the difference in sounds?

[Richard Choi]

Are you saying that golfers cannot feel vibrations or that golfers can't feel the difference between the vibrations of a forged club and a cast club?

That is basically what the second study you quoted is saying - that feel is largely based on sound.

Are you also then saying that despite giving off the same vibrations they give off different sounds?

No, the same vibration will give off the same sound. However, people can differentiate much finer difference in sound pitch than vibration frequency through hands.

To what do you credit the difference in sounds?

I am not saying there is difference in sound between a forged and a cast club head of same shape. I am saying that I would not be suprised if there were small differences since sound travels differently in objects with different density. Unless someone does a definitive study on this issue, no one knows.

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