[Troy Alderson]

So I was thinking the other day about bunkers, placement on the hole, and playing out of a bunker.  I am a mid-handicap and am fairly good at bunker play.  I hit out of a green side bunker onto a green surface "most" of the time.  So whether I am in a green side bunker or just off the green does not matter to me.  BUT, if I am in a fairway bunker, then more than likely I will not get the ball to the green.  In fact, if I do get the ball to the green I was extremely blessed with the shot.

My conclusion then is that green side bunkers are a waste of time and the architect should concentrate more on fairway bunkering and green surround mounding/sloping to challenge the golfer.  I remember a quote from an old architect in the UK that said something like "the challenge of an architect is to layout a course without bunkers and still challenge the golfer".

Thoughts?

Troy

[Mark Pritchett]

What if a mid handicapper is not proficient from green side bunkers?

What if a mid handicapper is a plays exceptional from fairway bunkers?

If a mid handicapper is a great putter, are greens a waste of time?

 

[jonathan_becker]

Troy,

"Most" of the time is what %?

With all due respect, as a mid-handicapper, even if you get the ball out of the bunker and onto the green, how many times are you getting the ball up and down?  My guess would be less than 50%. 

In your situation, I don't think they're a waste of time because you're still losing shots.  Isn't that the challenge? Managing your game and not wasting shots?  If you can make the guarantee that you're getting up and down all the time, then sure the challenge is gone.

I guess I don't get why you think they're a waste of time if you can't get it up and down without fail.  Maybe I misinterpreted what you're saying.

[Brent Hutto]

Speaking as a somewhat-higher-than-mid-handicapper, let me say this...

Don't assume that if I'm not in a fairway bunker I will hit the green. I think that's the flaw in your reasoning.

If I'm chipping from fifteen paces off the green I'll hit the green every time and from a bunker that's more like a 50/50 proposition.

If I'm in a fairway bunker I will almost certainly not hit the ball onto the green (unless it's within 120-130 yards and I have a good lie) but if I'm in the rough just outside that bunker I'm only 50/50 to hit the green from say 150 yards.

And finally take the case of a fairway bunker on a Par 5. For my game they're all unreachable in two so a layup out of a flattish fairway bunker is as easy as the same layup from the rough and not that much riskier than a layup from the fairway.

It's all very situation and player dependent. Also, don't neglect the effect of a greenside bunker on short shots from outside the bunker, especially if there isn't much green or it slopes away. I had one of those yesterday. My approach shot was (lefty) pull-hooked miles right of the green and the ball was up against a tree. No way to make a decent swing, if there hadn't been a bunker in the way I could have just thumped down on the back of the ball and rolled it onto the green. Instead, I had to roll it into the bunker and then play a short-sided bunker shot to a green running away from me for my fourth. That particular bunker makes me usually play to short of that green because there's a swamp to the left and right (as I learned) is generally dead. That's worth designing into the hole.

[JC Jones]

I've never missed a 2 foot putt, should I have to putt them?

I think the point that others are making, quite well, is that the beauty of the game of golf is there are multiple challenges on the course and proficiency at one does not mean proficiency at all of them.  The good news is that proficiency at one (especially putting) can make up for a lack of proficiency in another. 

[Brent Hutto]

Yeah after missing the green by 40 yards, rolling the ball into the bunker, blasting out and having it run all way to the other side of the green I made the 25-footer coming back for a bogey. Ho-hum...missed the green and made bogey...that guy needs to work on his putting.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Troy I can see where you are coming from on this. I think a golf course could still be as challenging without bunkers. I have just completed a course with 20 sand bunkers. I think many of those are just to add 'colour', the real bunkers that influence play are the fairway ones. Greenside sand bunkers v Grassy hollows, the grassy hollows are probably more difficut for the expert player whist a lesser player would find sand harder.

[Richard Choi]

Well, I am exactly the opposite.

I rarely have problems from the rough (I refuse to call bunkers in rough fairway bunkers) bunkers. Unless I am near the lip, I can hit just fine out the bunkers and I can get it at least near the green (not significantly worse than my regular approach), especially using my hybrid.

But from the greenside bunker, it is unlikely for me to go up and down. It is significantly worse than if I was in rough of the same distance.

My conclusion is exactly opposite of yours. Who is correct?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Richard, whats your handicap?

[Richard Choi]

10. But that is as low as it has ever been. I have been hovering around 13 to 15 for most of the last several years.

I can hit long, but my short game is atrocious.

[Garland Bayley]

Well, I am exactly the opposite.

I rarely have problems from the rough (I refuse to call bunkers in rough fairway bunkers) bunkers. Unless I am near the lip, I can hit just fine out the bunkers and I can get it at least near the green (not significantly worse than my regular approach), especially using my hybrid.

But from the greenside bunker, it is unlikely for me to go up and down. It is significantly worse than if I was in rough of the same distance.

My conclusion is exactly opposite of yours. Who is correct?

I'm with Richard. I am as likely to get on the green from a fairway bunker as from the fairway, unless the bunkers are deep enough to force me to play a higher shot. I have struggled with the explosion shot green side.

Tilly wrote that fairway bunkering is secondary and can be more easily done without. I like the gravity golf sentiment that Troy expressed from "an old architect" in the UK. I like Bill Diddel's attempt to make challenging golf without bunkers. Pete didn't learn very well from him.

We have a green at my home course that is better defended by gravity than if someone were to add bunkering around it.

[Garland Bayley]

I've never missed a 2 foot putt, should I have to putt them?

...

You obviously either putt on billiard tables, or don't putt from 2 feet and under.

[Anthony Fowler]

For better players, if greens are firm and the rough is thick, it is usually better to be in a bunker than in the rough.  This is true for greenside and longer shots.  To me, this is problematic in the sense that bunkers were placed to penalize and make for a challenging recovery.  If we think this is a problem (at least for the top level competitive golfers) a few solutions would include

1. Don't rake bunkers (maybe players could smooth the sand with their feet but not leave a perfect lie for the next player)
2. Use the wide tooth rakes like Muirfield Village or Oakmont back in the day
3. Design more challenging bunkers with dramatic lips and lots of sidehill/downhill lies and funny stances
4. Cut the rough so that the bunkers are relatively more difficult

I personally prefer option 3 because I think it will provide the most opportunities for fun recovery shots. 

[jonathan_becker]

Anthony,

I would prefer your option #3 as the best, too.   It shows the true skills of the player much better.  Actuallly, this was kind of my thinking in my first post.  There are too many greenside bunker shots with a high degree of difficulty to just blow them off.

Troy,

I think I took your post too literally and if by going along with Adrian's thinking, I get what you're saying.  I'll agree with him in that the grassy hollows are probably more difficult than bunkers.  You can't spin it near as much.  

But you need to learn how to "pick it" out of fw bunkers.    When you can get that shot down, they're no problem.

[Bill_McBride]

But you need to learn how to "pick it" out of fw bunkers.    When you can get that shot down, they're no problem.

Fairway bunker shot.......dig in your feet for a solid base, and choke up an amount equal to how far your feet are dug in.  That helps with the clean contact, but you still have to hit down on the ball.   Rory McIlroy and Cabrera gave a clinic Sunday!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Well, I am exactly the opposite.

I rarely have problems from the rough (I refuse to call bunkers in rough fairway bunkers) bunkers. Unless I am near the lip, I can hit just fine out the bunkers and I can get it at least near the green (not significantly worse than my regular approach), especially using my hybrid.

But from the greenside bunker, it is unlikely for me to go up and down. It is significantly worse than if I was in rough of the same distance.

My conclusion is exactly opposite of yours. Who is correct?

Richard, if you read my post again and you are 10 handicap then your concusion concurrs with mine..so we are both right :O)

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

concussion has two s's and you should seek medical advice quick

As for bunkers, I find grass bunkers around the greens as more challeging for the low handicapper and fairway bunkers (sand) that require a good shot to reach the green the most teasing/testing.

I would advocate not raking bunkers except occasionally as the best way to toughen up the hazard for low handicappers as well as reducing maintenance costs. Simple concusion to reach really

Jon

[Troy Alderson]

Well, I am exactly the opposite.

I rarely have problems from the rough (I refuse to call bunkers in rough fairway bunkers) bunkers. Unless I am near the lip, I can hit just fine out the bunkers and I can get it at least near the green (not significantly worse than my regular approach), especially using my hybrid.

But from the greenside bunker, it is unlikely for me to go up and down. It is significantly worse than if I was in rough of the same distance.

My conclusion is exactly opposite of yours. Who is correct?

Hi Richard,

Well... I am correct  , but that is beside the point.  I understand that we all play the game differently.  My post is from my point of view and my playing style.  Now I want to play out of fairway/rough bunkers like you do, I'm jealous.

Troy

[Troy Alderson]

Troy I can see where you are coming from on this. I think a golf course could still be as challenging without bunkers. I have just completed a course with 20 sand bunkers. I think many of those are just to add 'colour', the real bunkers that influence play are the fairway ones. Greenside sand bunkers v Grassy hollows, the grassy hollows are probably more difficut for the expert player whist a lesser player would find sand harder.

Hi Adrian,

Thank you for understanding my post.  My comparison was the difference between hitting out of a green side bunker onto the green vs. chipping/pitching from just off the green.  Both give me about the same response, onto the green and a one or two putt.  So for me green side bunkers are not the challenge but fairway/rough bunkers are.

Troy

[Troy Alderson]

Anthony,

I would prefer your option #3 as the best, too.   It shows the true skills of the player much better.  Actuallly, this was kind of my thinking in my first post.  There are too many greenside bunker shots with a high degree of difficulty to just blow them off.

Troy,

I think I took your post too literally and if by going along with Adrian's thinking, I get what you're saying.  I'll agree with him in that the grassy hollows are probably more difficult than bunkers.  You can't spin it near as much.  

But you need to learn how to "pick it" out of fw bunkers.    When you can get that shot down, they're no problem.

Hi Jonathan,

You are right, I need to learn to hit out of fairway bunkers.  I also need to learn how to hit the green in regulation.  My driving off the tee is above average, my putting is above average, but my game in between is horrible.  My only saving grace is my 20+ year old sand wedge "PGA model DH hand ground" that I picked out of a pro shop barrel.

BTW, I shot an 88 yesterday with the GCS of Reames.  He is a 5 and I am a 15, he scored an 83 so I beat him on the net scores.  I played quit well thank you very much.  No fairway bunkers, in fact I did not hit a single bunker all day, and 2 water balls on 2 holes in the same pond.

Troy

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