[Ben Stephens]

*removed*

[kurt bowman]

All,

In support of Mr. Ruddy I would like to explain reacting to criticism as a GCA. First of all we all have poured a part of our being into projects that are then critiqued by the golfers that play them. It does take thick skin to hear critical remarks about work that you take great pride in. To explain this as an analogy, it's a bit like hearing someone you don't know criticize your child or mother. I know this comes with the territory of being a GCA, but none the less it is sometimes hard to swallow. The critics many times don't understand the issues and obstacles that helped determine the outcome. Also, many times the reviews come after one round played or a "drive-thru". I have never played TEC, but have heard sharp criticism's before of my own work, and thought I would try to explain Mr. Ruddy's sensitivity to the criticism.

Cheers,

Kurt

[Mark Pearce]

Kurt,

I think we all appreciate sensitivity to criticism of our work.  If (and thankfully it's rare) my work is criticised it hurts.  However, I think the way you react says a lot about you.  I recall criticism of one of Kelly's courses resulting in a very civilised and instructive discussion between critic and architect, with Kelly explaining why he had done what he had done.  Eventually, whilst the two agreed to disagree on much, both moved some way and, I suspect, learned from the process.  If only that had happened here.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,

I have no horse in this race, but to go after Pat for using an analogy that I have heard used by others on here is not fair. I am sure many people on this site have various life experiences, but to expect everyone here to tippy-toe around so we don't bring back bad memories for someone is not reasonable. I don't think Pat meant anything bad by using that analogy anymore then I think Johnny Cash was advocating killing your wife. It just seems like a silly thing for which to go after him and makes it appear like you are trying to score points by picking at a man's words and in some way use it in a dishonest manner to disparage his character. Then you have to let us know how much it hurts you because of some experience in your life so we all become enraged at this man for bringing pain, I mean I could go on about how silly it is to pick at a man in this way.

Kelly,

I do not have a horse in this race either. I am not trying to get into an argument with you or get brownie points. It is obvious that we are seeing this differently.

Also Pat’s analogy is implying that whoever says no is a liar. That is not true in some cases but to bring women bashing into it in my view is pretty poor hence my reaction. There is one reply on this thread that support my sentiments.  Pat could have used more sensible wording which is a better way of using his analogy. I am not trying to do a character assassination of Pat maybe this comment might be out of character for a private family man who I assume would have high moral standards and know that wife beating is totally unacceptable. I have written positive comments about Pat on the forum. Can we shake hands, bury this and move on to more interesting discussions on golf courses.

I should not have made public about my bad life experiences and would like to apologise if I have offended anyone.  
 
Cheers
Ben

[James Boon]

Kurt,

As an architect of buildings, I've had people say a lot harsher things about buildings I've designed than anything Scott has said about TEC.

I'd say that any designer who puts his work out into the public domain has to expect bad comments as well as good. I dont think its about being thick skinned, I think its about taking the bad comments with the same grace as one takes the good.

Cheers,

James

[Ben Stephens]

Kurt,

I think we all appreciate sensitivity to criticism of our work.  If (and thankfully it's rare) my work is criticised it hurts.  However, I think the way you react says a lot about you.  I recall criticism of one of Kelly's courses resulting in a very civilised and instructive discussion between critic and architect, with Kelly explaining why he had done what he had done.  Eventually, whilst the two agreed to disagree on much, both moved some way and, I suspect, learned from the process.  If only that had happened here.

Hear hear!, I agree with Mark comments having experienced being in the designer's corner receiving comments whether they are positive or negative.

[Ben Stephens]

Kurt,

As an architect of buildings, I've had people say a lot harsher things about buildings I've designed than anything Scott has said about TEC.

I'd say that any designer who puts his work out into the public domain has to expect bad comments as well as good. I dont think its about being thick skinned, I think its about taking the bad comments with the same grace as one takes the good.

Cheers,

James

For example - If I said that the new Landsdowne Road Stadium (Aviva Stadium) in Dublin is like a Toilet Seat (which it is) full of garbage would the designer be offended at that comment? he/she probably would 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Pat ignores that I have been far more scathing about the 10th at St Enodoc than anything on his course.

Well, that just about does it! One of the best short par 5s in the world! I don't know about the European Club, but now Scott definitely went over the edge

Ulrich

[Pat Ruddy]

Mr Boon
I have no problem with people not liking my work and criticising it.
I am not so stupid as to think that my work is so perfect that it is not open to discussion and that some people may not like aspects of it.
BUT when a fellow goes out of his way to repeat and repeat criticisms .... over several months ... stretching for the opportunity to denigrate my work ... dragging his criticisms over many outlets ......I say excuse me.
If my work is so poor it can hardly merit comment at all.    Certainly, it can hardly be worthy of attack month after month.
Regards,  PR

Mr Stephen,
I am sorry if you were offended or hurt by the analogy I selected to make my point. This is just a well known illustration, dating from before my time, of the structure of a trick question.  No more and no less.     
I assure you that I had no wish to hurt anyone.  I do not know you so I can bear you no ill.  Quite the contrary, I wish you a long and happy life in golf design and in golf generally and maybe we will get to have a latte together one day.  Please accept my apology for hurt caused.
Pat Ruddy

[Ben Stephens]

Pat ignores that I have been far more scathing about the 10th at St Enodoc than anything on his course.

Well, that just about does it! One of the best short par 5s in the world! I don't know about the European Club, but now Scott definitely went over the edge

Ulrich

Ulrich,

From memory the 10th at St Enodoc is actually a devillish par 4! I agree in someways that it should be a short par 5 allowing 2 different ways of playing it

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Mr Stephen,
I am sorry if you were offended or hurt by the analogy I selected to make my point. This is just a well known illustration, dating from before my time, of the structure of a trick question.  No more and no less.      
I assure you that I had no wish to hurt anyone.  I do not know you so I can bear you no ill.  Quite the contrary, I wish you a long and happy life in golf design and in golf generally and maybe we will get to have a latte together one day.  Please accept my apology for hurt caused.
Pat Ruddy

Pat

Thanks for your reply/apology - will shake hands and consider this matter closed. No probs would be happy to have a latte/guinness with you and discuss golf and golf course design anytime.

Wish you all the best with your golf writing and future Pat Ruddy golf course design work which I look forward to.

Kind Regards
Ben

[Ulrich Mayring]

From memory the 10th at St Enodoc is actually a devillish par 4

I should become a stage magician. I can, with a snip of my fingers, turn an awe-inspiring and multi-faceted golf hole into a one-sided, devilish brute - and vice versa. All without touching it. Just by printing a new scorecard

Ulrich

[Jon Wiggett]

Ulrich,

From memory the 10th at St Enodoc is actually a devillish par 4! I agree in someways that it should be a short par 5 allowing 2 different ways of playing it

Cheers
Ben

Ben,

why would altering the par suddenly produce an extra way of playing the hole. Surely the various ways of playing a hole are there regardless of par.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

From memory the 10th at St Enodoc is actually a devillish par 4

I should become a stage magician. I can, with a snip of my fingers, turn an awe-inspiring and multi-faceted golf hole into a one-sided, devilish brute - and vice versa. All without touching it. Just by printing a new scorecard

Ulrich

This is a wonderful answer....

[Sean_A]

From memory the 10th at St Enodoc is actually a devillish par 4

I should become a stage magician. I can, with a snip of my fingers, turn an awe-inspiring and multi-faceted golf hole into a one-sided, devilish brute - and vice versa. All without touching it. Just by printing a new scorecard

Ulrich

This is a wonderful answer....

+1.  Doak thinks way too much time is spent talking about bunkers - what about "par strategy"?

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Ulrich,

From memory the 10th at St Enodoc is actually a devillish par 4! I agree in someways that it should be a short par 5 allowing 2 different ways of playing it

Cheers
Ben

Ben,

why would altering the par suddenly produce an extra way of playing the hole. Surely the various ways of playing a hole are there regardless of par.

Jon

Jon

Knowing if this hole was a par 5 some people will play it conservatively as there is quite a lot of trouble lurking about on this hole and it puts some people off psychologically in some respects. If it was a par 4 some would take more risk with the aim of getting par. I would play this hole the same irrespective of what the par is - its my way of playing golf. 

Cheers
Ben

[Paul_Turner]

Pat - I believe from a news report there are currently 300 000 empty houses in Ireland, including brand new estates of 4-5 bedroom houses no body wants to live in. Are they really ripping up the Dun Laoghaire course to build more (unwanted) houses??

Mark, seeing as Pat may or may not resurface on this thread, I'll fill you in slightly:

The old Dun Laoghaire course (designed by Harry Colt on a current space of 69 acres) has been out of commission for 2 or 3 years now... During the boom times, they did a land swap deal, building a new 27 hole facility out of town... Before most (or maybe all?) of that land was built on, the market crashed... So it is in limbo but I have no doubt it will be built on at sometime in the future because it is in a prime location...

That prime location for me meant that Dun Laoghaire (as was) was the perfect "sustainable" golf course.... cheap to maintain and the busiest (bar none in my estimation) clubhouse in the country... A very social club... The new facility is completely wrong... It is a resort style, very long, very expensive place with a huge unused clubhouse... They doubled their visitor green fees and lost every single one of the society outings that were bread and butter intakes at the old course...

It is one of the worst examples of Celtic Tiger excess on display in our country...

Taken as an individual entity, the golf course itself (designed by Marc Westenborg of Hawtree) may be very good... I have heard some pretty decent reports... and I'm fairly sure he would have been following a strong client brief...

Still, the whole undertaking rankles with me...

Ally

Do you think Dun Laoghaire is still there?  Or has it been bull-dozered?  Definitely a good example of the over exuberant times;  the new 27 looks charmless.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Pat - I believe from a news report there are currently 300 000 empty houses in Ireland, including brand new estates of 4-5 bedroom houses no body wants to live in. Are they really ripping up the Dun Laoghaire course to build more (unwanted) houses??

Mark, seeing as Pat may or may not resurface on this thread, I'll fill you in slightly:

The old Dun Laoghaire course (designed by Harry Colt on a current space of 69 acres) has been out of commission for 2 or 3 years now... During the boom times, they did a land swap deal, building a new 27 hole facility out of town... Before most (or maybe all?) of that land was built on, the market crashed... So it is in limbo but I have no doubt it will be built on at sometime in the future because it is in a prime location...

That prime location for me meant that Dun Laoghaire (as was) was the perfect "sustainable" golf course.... cheap to maintain and the busiest (bar none in my estimation) clubhouse in the country... A very social club... The new facility is completely wrong... It is a resort style, very long, very expensive place with a huge unused clubhouse... They doubled their visitor green fees and lost every single one of the society outings that were bread and butter intakes at the old course...

It is one of the worst examples of Celtic Tiger excess on display in our country...

Taken as an individual entity, the golf course itself (designed by Marc Westenborg of Hawtree) may be very good... I have heard some pretty decent reports... and I'm fairly sure he would have been following a strong client brief...

Still, the whole undertaking rankles with me...

Ally

Do you think Dun Laoghaire is still there?  Or has it been bull-dozered?  Definitely a good example of the over exuberant times;  the new 27 looks charmless.

Paul,

If I had to guess, I'd say that half the course (the clubhouse side of the road) will have been bulldozered and the other half will be much more intact... These were the two phases of house construction... But that really is only a guess...

The old Colt course had few very good holes... It had already lost much land I believe, meaning changes had been made... But it had a charm... and it genuinely was a very busy clubhouse for locals who enjoyed their round... It was one of my favourite society outings each year...

[Jon Wiggett]

Ulrich,

From memory the 10th at St Enodoc is actually a devillish par 4! I agree in someways that it should be a short par 5 allowing 2 different ways of playing it

Cheers
Ben

Ben,

why would altering the par suddenly produce an extra way of playing the hole. Surely the various ways of playing a hole are there regardless of par.

Jon

Jon

Knowing if this hole was a par 5 some people will play it conservatively as there is quite a lot of trouble lurking about on this hole and it puts some people off psychologically in some respects. If it was a par 4 some would take more risk with the aim of getting par. I would play this hole the same irrespective of what the par is - its my way of playing golf. 

Cheers
Ben

Ben,

I am in the same boat as you. My huge slice on to the 14th fairway meant I could lay up with a three wood. Although if it had been a par five my chip in on the fourth shot would have been a birdie

[Scott Warren]

Pat,

What say we put this bickering behind us and agree that on some matters two golfers must agree to disagree, while respecting the other's opinion and right to feel strongly about a course or topic he is passionate about?

I think this topic has taken you, me and a few others into negative waters that the good ship GCA was not designed to navigate. The good thing is that we are all passionate about great golf courses, but this is not the way to express it, I think you'll agree.

Please accept my genuine regret for any distress my criticism has caused you. I certainly posted my review without malicious intentions, but I now realise I also did so without appreciating that after 20 years of work, there is so much of you in that course that you'd naturally feel a personal sting.

As far as the personal attacks, the claims and counter claims, let's take a step back and accept each other at our word. I certainly do so. I take you at your word and calling you a liar in my post was not right. My apologies. Differences are differences, but I am sure the people our friends know us as are different people to the ones you and I have come to know in each other through this back-and-forth.

As far as rankings... well, I spend far too much time worrying about them for someone who's not convinced they really count for much! TEC may not be GB&I top 20 in my book, but it's no more my place to talk down Golf World and its panel of raters than it would be for any of them to tell me my list of favourites/bests is "wrong".

I wish you well, congratulate you on turning a dream most of us harbour into a successful venture and finish by insisting that should you find yourself in my neck of the woods, that we share at least a pint and preferably a round of golf.

cheers and best wishes,
Scott

[Brian Phillips]

Awesome post Scott.

[Pat Ruddy]

Excuse me Brian.  You popped-up between two old pals!!!!

I am pleased to accept Mr. Warren's apology and thank him for it.  
  
I wish him well in his career forward.  
He shows great industry and  significant knowledge  and appreciation of the game for one so young.
  
Hopefully, he will have learned lessons  from this episode, e.g. to resist the urge to use the great power of the internet or of the press  to
attack again and again those, or the work of those, who have the temerity to challenge him.

I would assure him that my reaction to his actions is in no way emotional.  My business was under attack and I have no apology to offer for defending a disproportionate assault.  

 Stranger things have happened that that we could become friends after all.  He is welcome to come back for golf and tea and conversation. I would hope that might happen.  Life is too short for any other stance,
PR

[Mark Pearce]

Gentlemen,

My faith in human nature is restored.  Well done, both of you.

[David_Elvins]

Pat Ruddy,

Now that things seem to have taken a turn for the better (nice post scott) do you mind if i ask a more basic question.

What was the reasoning behind choosing the name "The European Club"?   It has always struck me as unusual for a links course in Ireland.   (I assume names such as "The Irish Club" and "Ruddy Cheeks golf links" were already taken. )

Sorry if this has been covered before but I am intrigued.

[Pat Ruddy]

Sorry Elvis.

This old guy has had his cocoa and is off to bed.

Keep swinging....

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