Are there any good double dog-leg par 5s?

[Bart Bradley]

I played a par 5 yesterday that had 2 sharp doglegs with a final blind uphill approach  (the first to the right and the second to the left).  I didn't love it   .  Trees were used to create the dogleg...so you couldn't really "straighten the hole out" with length.

Are there examples of good or great double dog-legs?  How often are they used?

They can certainly eliminate the value of length off the tee if trees are used to create the dogleg.  Is this a good thing?

Would I feel differently if the doglegs were created using a hazard that can be flown over, such as bunkers?  Probably.

Would it be more appealing if the angles were less sharp so that playing down the extreme inside edge of the first dogleg would allow for working the ball around the trees on the second? Probably. (If the doglegs were both in the same direction...obviously, the player would gain the advantage by playing down the extreme outside edge of the first).

If double dog-legs are ever good, are they dog-legs that go in opposite directions or the same direction?  I have no idea.

Discuss double dog-legs and give me some examples of ones that you think are good holes or great holes?

Bart

[Phil_the_Author]

Bart,

YES, there are not only some good ones, but there are some GREAT ones. I suggest that you go to the Tillinghast Association website, www.tillinghast.net, and look up under the heading "Double Dogleg" as Tilly loved designing them. By the way, we will be adding to the ones shown shortly...

[Bill_McBride]

It may not be a "great" hole but it is certainly unusual and challenging:  #13 Tobacco Road.  It plays like a double dogleg if you can't (1) cut the corner    or (2) hit the second shot to the farthest landing area.

[Ed Oden]

My favorite par 5 anywhere is a double dog leg.  #16 at Shinnecock...

[Tom_Doak]

Ed:  I would not call the hole at Shinnecock a double dogleg.  It's possible to play it straight toward the green off the tee, and the common line from the tee is maybe 5 or 10 degrees left of the green.

But, then, the only good Z-shaped doglegs are holes where you can try to cut the corners and get home in two.  The best of them is the 8th at Royal West Norfolk (Brancaster).  There are two big leaps over patches of tidal marsh ... depending on the success of your tee shot, you can try to play over the second marsh with your second shot, or play well away to the right down a finger of fairway, and then pitch across the marsh with your third.

Double-dogleg holes where the hole turns left and then left again (or right and right again) are almost an entirely different class of holes.  I would have to think more about those.

[Ed Oden]

Tom, I see your point.  Doesn't this really come down to what you consider a dogleg?  I've always viewed a dogleg to be defined on the ground.  Isn't the potential for a golfer to take a more direct line over that ground often the key to the risk/reward merit of a hole?

Ed

[Mike Benham]

Double-dogleg holes where the hole turns left and then left again (or right and right again) are almost an entirely different class of holes.  I would have to think more about those.

16th at Olympic Lake ...

[Ron Csigo]

Although I haven't played it, the 5th hole (Snake) at Whistling Straits looks like a good double dog-leg par 5.  For those that have played it, feel free to comment.

[Phil_the_Author]

"Double-dogleg holes where the hole turns left and then left again (or right and right again) are almost an entirely different class of holes.  I would have to think more about those."

Bathpage Black #4... Left and then left again, almost creating a cape by the green.

[Ulrich Mayring]

The double dogleg nature is not entirely visible on this picture, but I'll try to explain: the view is after a great drive into the first dogleg (turning 90° right). The options for the second shot are a very long, straight bullet over the lakes or a lay up (still a long club for average players) right of the lakes. From that point the fairway turns 90° to the left for the last 100 yards or so.

I think it's a great hole (#5 at Bad Vilbel, close to Frankfurt, Germany), as it uses the double dogleg to create options.

Ulrich

[Tom Birkert]

One of my favourite holes is the 6th of The New at Sunningdale. The back tee really makes it play as a double dogleg right. You have to choose how much to bite off with both your drive and approach shot. What overhead pictures cannot convey is the slope of the fairway, which follows the shape of the hole by tilting right.

It's probably the highest point on either course, the view is fantastic and the tree removal has really opened up the views as well.

In the image (hopefully!) below, the back tee is in the lower left corner.

[Bart Bradley]

My favorite par 5 anywhere is a double dog leg.  #16 at Shinnecock...

Ed:

This looks like a beautiful hole...Obviously, the one I played yesterday was not as good.

I think that doglegs created by trees which prevent cutting the corners are a different animal than what this picture shows...I can tell you that the option with the trees is PROBABLY not as good  .


Tom:

Number 10 at Mauna Kea is a double dogleg with two right hand turns ....I found it to be fairly fun and interesting because you had to stay very, very far left (left 1/3 of the fairway) to have unimpeded shots on the next swing (trees formed the dogleg).

Everyone:


I am enjoying the input and learning much....tell me more about good and bad versions you guys have seen.

Bart

[Kenny Baer]

Saucon Valley Weyhill has a couple of double dleg par 5's that are pretty good.  Only played there once and don't remember every detail but I thought one of them on the front offered some interesting descisions if you hit a good drive.

[Scott Weersing]

I am not a big fan of a double dog leg par 5.

I played a lot of golf at Glendora CC where no. 18 goes right up a hill and then down to the left to the green. You had to hit a 3 wood off the tee or your drive would go through the end of the fairway. You could try to fade a driver but there was a road to the right and out of bounds. Very high risk and little reward because then your second shot was over a hill. The play was a 3 wood, 3 wood right and then a wedge. If your second shot was not on the right side of the fairway, then a huge pine tree blocked your third shot.

I never saw anyone reach the green in two.

Glendora CC has hosted many US amateur qualifying rounds as well as LA Open qualifying.

[Carl Rogers]

The 10th at Royal New Kent would have to qualify if you are a medium to shortish hitter.  If you are very long its just two straight shots.  The green has an elevation change that has to be 8 feet.

[Ed Oden]

Aren't double doglegs like any other hole?  That is, when done well they can be fantastic but when done poorly they don't work.  Similarly, why would a double dogleg where trees or any other obstacle affects the line of play be viewed any differently than a single dogleg which does the same thing?  That's why I say it all comes down to your view of doglegs generally and not double doglegs specifically.  My preference is for doglegs where the ground turns but the line of play is not forced.  I look at double doglegs the same way.

Ed

[Steve_ Shaffer]

On the public side, in the Philly 'burbs, Jeffersonville's 18th is a fine version of the double dogleg par5.

[Matthew Mollica]

Bob Harrison has designed a number of double dogleg par 5s which are really enjoyable.
Bob was once Greg Norman's right hand man, but he is now out on his own.
Of the double dogleg 5s he has designed, the 15th on the Moonah course at The National is my favourite.



MM

[Mike Policano]

At Ridgewood CC in NJ, 8 West is a very good double dog-leg par 5 done by Tillinghast.  It makes great use of the land.  It played as 17 in the 2008 Barclays and held its own.

[jkinney]

The 8th at Meadow Brook in Jericho, Long Island (Dick Wilson) is a great big parkland left-then-right dogleg par five. Wonderful hole.

[TEPaul]

Crump was in the process of turning the 7th hole at Pine Valley into a double dogleg but he died suddenly and the last part of his plan was never done. Personally I think it should be if there is still room to do it. When he died there was no road to the right of the second half of the hole as there is now.

[Tom Yost]

I played an unusual double dogleg (zig-zag style) last summer. The hole can be reached in two but with a blind second shot as the green sits in a hollow and is not visible from fairway.  The longest skinniest green I've ever seen.  Maybe not a great hole but certainly whimsical.

I post the aerials and see if anyone recognizes it.

[Adam Clayman]

Bart,
 I'm partial to the snaking, bunker less 6th at Wild Horse.

Perhaps it doesn't qualify? Especially after I saw a guy hit such a huge drive there today (down gale) leaving himself 160 yards in.

On their website they call it a DBL Dog
http://www.playwildhorse.com/golf/proto/playwildhorse/coursetour06/coursetour06.htm

[Brian Laurent]

As Kenny mentioned, Saucon Valley has some good double dog legs...especially #6 at Weyhill which crosses the creek twice.  #18 is also a double dog leg, but is fairly bland.  #10 on Grace is another double dl and I think a very good hole...wish I had some pics!

[Jordan Wall]

Would it be a stretch to call Pebble's 18th a double dogleg?  Dogleg left cape tee shot, similar dogleg left second shot.  That could be pushing it.

I thought Olympic's 16th was a good hole.  Porbably played as the longest par-5 I have ever played from all the way back into a stiff breeze on a cold day.  I can't imagine how anyone could get there in two, or even close.  Anyways, it's another one that goes left and then even more left.

Spyglass's 14th is a fun hole.  I would call it good, not great, but nonetheless it quailifies.

From Ran's review, he mentions the 2nd at Kiawah as a double dogleg par-5.  Don't know if its any good or not.