[Justin Harvey]

There is a small volunteer ran 9 hole course in south Tacoma, WA. Its called American Lake and it's for disabled and retired veterans of the military. They use the course to rehabilitate wounded veterans, and golf seems to really bring their spirits up, I wonder why Well there has been some recent news that has really got me excited about a new innovation in golf course architecture. Jack Nicklaus, the golden bear himself, has donated 9 holes designed by himself specifically for handicap players. While i've read on GCA that not everyone is a fan of all of Nicklaus Design. A high profile designer taking on a new frontier in architecture is cool to me. They have raised $2.95 million for construction of the back 9 and 250K is needed to renovate the existing front 9. I am really interested to see what Nicklaus design comes up with. Will the course be designed for all to enjoy or will it be specific for only handicap players? Either way it will be interesting to see how a high profile design company approches this project.

What do you think about the project the Jack is taking on?

Heres some links to the story:

Excellent Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59Fi6HhTW6k

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/04/16/1150559/jack-nicklaus-helping-disabled.html

[John Moore II]

Well, since I can't look at the video or article right now I'll have to suppose all these things. Likely this will be a good place for golf overall. If these are golfers bound (literally, Melvin, like these guys have no legs but still desire to play golf, so please stick that in your pipe and smoke it before you bitch and moan about golf cars) to golf carts, then the course would need to be fairly flat to accomodate them. If they can walk, but with help of a prosthetic, then it would need to be moderately flat, but also limit walking as best as possible. Other handicaps, while certainly meaningful and serious, can be excluded (I hate to use that word, I don't want to differentiate like that... ) because there is not a mobility issue. So either way, it seems this would be a good walker's course and if it has interest, even better.

And before I take a lot of heat about belittling handicapped people, I know a fellow PGA Pro who has one arm; lost one arm in a construction accident. He gives an incredible amount of time to the Wounded Warrior Program doing clinics and stuff for that program to really boost the morale of wounded servicemembers. Really top class guy.

[Pete_Pittock]

Good on Jack. American Lake has been on GCAs radar for a while. I hope they have a presence at the US Am or the Senior Open.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33493.0/

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

Golf is a game based upon walking a course. Unless you can walk the course you cannot play. That is fact and has been applied for 600 years.

Cart are available today but should only be made available for those who need them on medical grounds – that’s my opinion because I am a firm believer in maintaining the games traditions. I can’t walk a course anymore, after 100 yards I would have to stop due to severe spinal pain. Not believing in using a cart even with my medical condition I have not played for quite a few years. Yet as I have always said is you have a medical condition the cart allows you to play.

I have no problem with others less able and suffering from medical conditions to use aids to play the game. My own opinion is that for me it waters the game down to the point that it does not feel the same game that I have always played. I feel rightly or wrongly a cheat and of betraying the game I have always loved if I cannot play in its natural walking mode. I understand others do not have the same ties and association to golf as I do, so will not be able to understand that if I can’t walk then I cannot play golf.

So I hope again I have explained my feeling re carts and their use, but let’s take a moment to look at activities we cannot do which some of us may like to experience.

Classic and usually mentioned by our wives at a time of stress ‘Men should be able to have babies’ but its not possible.

There are other examples but I trust you take my point that our own physical format does limit our abilities and whilst some strive for the impossible we should know our own limitations. Remembering that golf has its rules, courtesy and consideration to other golfers is rather important, and works as a two way sword. If your disability reflects on a slow round and holding up others then that golfer should ask himself an honest question am I on the right course. This also gives rise to another question, should the majority always compromise for the wishes of the few (not minority)?

We all have a right to play golf but we should consider our own positions carefully remembering that courtesy and consideration on the course is a basic requirement of the game. Some totally ignore this in the pursuits of their own dreams (irrespective of their physical conditions)

As for this course, I wish them well and hope it succeeds. 

Melvyn

[Tom MacWood]

Melvyn
I'm a little surprised by your reaction....I thought you were more of a live and let live kind of guy. There have been a number of developments over the last 600 years designed to assist the handicapped (and the non handicapped) - braille, sign language, wheelchairs, motorized wheelchairs, ramps, elevators, hearing aids, customized breaks and accelerator for driving automobiles, customized skis, etc.

Reading is a skill based on site and speaking is a skill based on audible speech, and that was the case for millenniums...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

I am not against the handicapped or disabled, far from it but one needs  to understand  - As Dirty Harry once said ‘Man need to know his limitations’.

As for Braille, sign language, wheelchairs, motorized wheelchairs, ramps, elevators, hearing aids, customized breaks and accelerator for driving automobiles, customized skis, etc, they are there to make life easier. My whole point about golf is that it’s a challenge and not easy.

Did you not read the part where I wished the venture all success, or have you not yet acquired some other the skills you mentioned

Melvyn

[Jeff_Brauer]

Melvyn,

OUCH!  IMHO, all of human history is more about overcoming things than accepting status quo.  We would have NO progress if everyone just accepted things the way they were.  Besides, please tell me how a handicapped golfer trying to enjoy golf has ever negatively affected your life?

For the record, when I worked for Killian and Nugent, we designed a handicap only course for a rehab center in Staunton, VA, but it never got built as far as I know.  We stayed in the dorms a few nights in the design phase. I admit, the first night, I darn near threw up while eating and living amongst the "crips."  By the third day, I was more inspired by just how much they did to overcome their limitations, often using medical devices to assist them.

Sports was a big part of many of their mental rehab, if not physical rehab.  No way bowling by setting a ball on a sort of stimpmeter device or golfing is ever the same, but dammit, its bowling or golf to them.

Later, when ADA came in, I agreed to play in a handicap golfer tournament and came away with a completey different view of how much I should work to ADA accessibility. To paraphrase a song, "The gimps, they just want to have fun, the gimps just want to have fun!" (sorry for the derogative names, but it fits the lyrics)

Even today, contractors, gca's and shapers look at me as if I am from Mars when reading my ADA specs.  And when I keep making them change shaping around greens and tees to provide that ADA ramp.  Very few seem to really take those regs seriously, but I do.  I have found that adding the ability for wheelchair golfers has not detracted from my designs one bit.  In fact, as I begin to feel my knees at age 55, in general, I pay a lot more attention to flat access routes onto greens and tees for the soon to be senior golfer, moi!

Now, I do have some worries that some future version of ADA regs will stipulate wheelchair accessible bunkers, which I would agree with Melyvn would really detract from the game.  But, so far, ADA golfers aren't demanding that.  They love golf courses as much as anyone and hate to see them totally wrecked just for their benefit.  They must want some minimal accomodations so they can enjoy life similar to what we do.  I am not usuall a big govt. guy, but this is a case where the USA has decided that the equal rights of the disabled are more important than our rights to enjoy golf as it was enjoyed 100 years ago.  Who can disagree with that big picture decision? (especially since so many use carts anyway)

[SL_Solow]

For several years the Sunshine Through Golf Foundation, the successor to the Chicago District Golf Association Foundation has operated a 3 hole course in Lemont Illinois which is completely accessible to those with disabilities.  The foundation was formed in 1945 to introduce disabled WWII vets to golf and has expanded its mission to help anyone who is disabled, particularly children and war vets, learn to play and enjoy our game.  Annually we host hundreds of clinics at clubs throughout Chicago free of charge and provide play at our course.  Funds are raised through private donations, a charity tournament and contributions from the CDGA.  We also use the course for turfgrass research.  I applaud the efforts to provide additional resources.  By the way, if anyone is interested in donating, I have the information.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In the mainstream gca world, Denis Griffiths probably designed the first ADA accessible golf course at Fox Hollow in CO back in 1993.  Denis worked with Greg Jones, who founded a disabled golfer group, and this was part of the basis for the ADA regs that came in to law later.  Of course, its a park district course intended for all golfers, but for the first time, it really meant "all golfers."  I think they still have annual disabled tournaments out there, too.

So, while its great that JN claims the first ever ADA course, its really a PR release, and not necessarily the true facts. If I were Denis G, I would be really pissed off right now! JN really needs to get out more!

[Michael Blake]

I am not against the handicapped or disabled, far from it but one needs  to understand  - As Dirty Harry once said ‘Man need to know his limitations’.

Wow.
Nice to see how intolerant you are of people trying to enjoy the execution of a golf shot as much as everyone else.

Good for them they don't adhere to your offensive Dirty Harry quote.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Wasn't The Old Course the first handicap golf course?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jeff

Knowing your own limitations does not stop you trying. The impossible is always possible subject to technology, but is golf all about technology? I would say no, for me its primarily all about the player mastering himself and the elements, using tools that I believe should be controlled to give sustainability and consistency. But the tend is to seek constant improvement allowing the gains to be translated into the golfer actually achieving these goals when in reality it’s all down to the equipment.

We can’t compare past champions to those of today because the equipment has so enhanced the game that it’s forcing change not for the good of the game but for the profits of the equipment companies.

Courses and tournaments for the disabled is great and if enough then should be encouraged but that does not mean that one of these player will some day match Tiger without the help of technology. The Rules will by the nature of these players have to be different so should not be compared to traditional golf.

The real question is when does an aid make one a cheat (for want of a better word). Because you have not achieved it, but the aids have given you that ability. It would be unfair to compare.

We all work within out limitations, that does not mean that the likes of Tiger has yet reached his limit.

Melvyn

PS Michael Blake - I am due to my medical problems unable to walk a course and play golf, so I feel I have an understanding of how it feels not to be able to play a life long game I have enjoyed. Intolerant, perhaps but talking from experience, what’s you basic for your comment - poison perhaps, may even be anti the disabled as its aimed at me.
 

[Garland Bayley]

Melvyn,

Forgive them. Their reading comprehension is hindered by underpaid teachers in underperforming US schools.

[Bill_McBride]

Melvyn,

Forgive them. Their reading comprehension is hindered by underpaid teachers in underperforming US schools.

Melvyn is a man of his convictions.  He won't use a cart although it would extend his golfing life in spite of his infirmity.  That's his choice.  Each of us has to make that choice individually, and it's not for any of us to tell others in that position what they must do or not do in order to continue a game we all enjoy and cherish.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Melvyn,

Well, yours is a most unusual viewpoint, and I am not critiquing.  But most would love to keep playing recreational golf in SOME form, rather than give up when they can't walk.  To most, making small (well, maybe not to you) changes in the game so they can enjoy it is perfectly acceptable, because playing GOLF is the main goal in their lives, not playing old golf, traditional golf, etc.  I can see their point and yours too.

All of which begs the question if the game of golf is greater if it CAN adapt, or if it stays the same?  It has certainly adapted from the seaside to all over the world, and I think recreational golf can adapt well.  Adaptation is a constant of evolution, too - ever since the first sea creatures got up on land, or later got up on only two feet.  Why golf should be shrouded from the inevitabilities of nature is frankly, beyond me.  Adaptation is life itself!

I was not for Casey Martin getting  a cart, but that one golfer is such a speck on the world golf landscape.  Of course, recreational golfers are not going to compete for national championships, and I agree that Casey M probably just doesn't have what it takes to be a national golf champion, nor should the weak of a specific weakness be given aid to help them win.  The title go to the biggest and strongest.  But for the most part, golf is recreation and adapting that to current needs seems wise to me.  I think as our lives get easier, golf got easier, too, which is somewhat troublesome on one level, but not really anything different than what we should expect.

On the recreational level, newer, easier to hit equipment is part of that adaptation of golf, and the average Joe doesn't have a lower handicap because of it, because so few realize its putting and chippig that make the score difference, not the extra 10 yards.  That golf skill has enured for hundreds of years.

[Michael Huber]

This thread, wow, I don't even know what to say without being inflammatory. 

[Michael Blake]

PS Michael Blake - I am due to my medical problems unable to walk a course and play golf, so I feel I have an understanding of how it feels not to be able to play a life long game I have enjoyed. Intolerant, perhaps but talking from experience, what’s you basic for your comment - poison perhaps, may even be anti the disabled as its aimed at me.
 

You said you were not against the handicapped or disabled, yet you complete that sentence with, 'A man needs to know his limitations.'  That quote seems to imply you are telling people who are handicapped that they should 'simply accept their limitations and move on.  That maybe perhaps golf is not a game for the handicapped.'

I apologize if you meant differently from your Dirty Harry quote.  If you did then please explain the point you were trying to make using that quote.  

[Justin Harvey]

Its seems really strange to me that a post that should bring about good discussion about how great this quality designed golf course will be for these veterans and wounded soilders. It is then completely flipped on its head and is turned into a discussion on how golf wasn't created to accomidate these people. I think we should all remeber this is a game and it should be able to be enjoyed by all even if the course has to be tailored to their needs.

[Bill_McBride]

Its seems really strange to me that a post that should bring about good discussion about how great this quality designed golf course will be for these veterans and wounded soilders. It is then completely flipped on its head and is turned into a discussion on how golf wasn't created to accomidate these people. I think we should all remeber this is a game and it should be able to be enjoyed by all even if the course has to be tailored to their needs.

Welcome to Golf Club Atlas.................

[Eric Smith]

Its seems really strange to me that a post that should bring about good discussion about how great this quality designed golf course will be for these veterans and wounded soilders. It is then completely flipped on its head and is turned into a discussion on how golf wasn't created to accomidate these people. I think we should all remeber this is a game and it should be able to be enjoyed by all even if the course has to be tailored to their needs.

kind of makes you sick doesn't it

[Garland Bayley]

...
I have no problem with others less able and suffering from medical conditions to use aids to play the game.
...
As for this course, I wish them well and hope it succeeds. 

Melvyn

Justin,

I hope you are not blaming Melvyn for flipping it.

Melvyn's message has always been the same. Carts can be used if needed. The just aren't for him even though he would need them to play the game.

The problem is that people don't pay attention. JKM got this thread off to a bad start for misrepresenting Melvyn's position from the very beginning.

Myself? I wish to repeat Melvyn's sentiment as it is also mine. "As for this course, I wish them well and hope it succeeds."

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff Brauer,

I didn't know that you spent the extra time and thought to make your designs accessible for almost everyone, even while others aren't so inclined.   

Thanks for being a Martian. 
 

[Justin Harvey]

Garland,

I posted this because I thought it was great for the veterans, and would be good to hear what people thought. Obviously Melvyn is a traditonalist and he expressed his views, but his views were distorted which started the discussion down a road opposite of what I intended. My views are that of Jeff Brauer that the game is going to evolve over the 600 years that it has been around, and some of the improvements will be for the better. This golf course will improve the lives of many how could that not be an improvement on the game.

I have another question for both you Garland and Melvyn. Does a traditionalist look down upon all other golfers that aren't carrying, using blades, and classic putters? While i do prefer to carry,  I do occasionally ride to complete a round quickly. I still feel like I'm challenged when i get out of the cart and have to execute the shot. Does this make me a lesser gofer, am i disrespecting the game?  I am just trying to understand this view better.

Justin

[Garland Bayley]

Justin,

Now you are taking the thread off topic yourself.

When I started reading the thread, I read JKM's post misrepresenting Melvyn, and knew that Melvyn would have to correct. Chances are if posters wouldn't chide Melvyn with misrepresentations of his position, threads could proceed less inhibited.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think anytime someone gives of himself to those less fortunate is a great thing. In this case I am pleased to hear Jack's team is doing this.

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