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Scott Szabo

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Old Macdonald Course Rating
« on: April 24, 2010, 08:17:46 PM »
"The Orgeon GA released the USGA course and slope rating for the Old Macdonald course at Bandon Dunes Resort, set for its public opening June 1.  The par-71 homage to C.B. Macdonald, designed by Tom Doak and Jim Urbina, will play 6,978 yards from the back tees (Black) with a course rating of 74.1 and a slope of 133".

How does this compare with the other courses at Bandon?  Other courses designed by Doak and Company?
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Chris Flamion

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 09:20:56 PM »
I don't know how it compares to most but a 74.1 and 133 are both pretty fierce, especially for a par 71.  That said the slope is pretty gentle considering it has such a high rating. 

John Moore II

Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 10:25:23 PM »
We need more courses with course and slope ratings the compare like this. This means the course plays hard for the scratch golfer and the bogey rating is not exceptionally difficult. Courses like this are better for the average golfer and probably more enjoyable for them as well. Just the combination of stuff that is needed on the golf business today.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 11:17:21 PM »
We need more courses with course and slope ratings the compare like this. This means the course plays hard for the scratch golfer and the bogey rating is not exceptionally difficult. Courses like this are better for the average golfer and probably more enjoyable for them as well. Just the combination of stuff that is needed on the golf business today.

John,

Couldn't agree more.  Also brought to mind Talking Stick North- 7133 yards,  72.7 rating, 123 slope......
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Moore II

Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 11:33:03 PM »
We need more courses with course and slope ratings the compare like this. This means the course plays hard for the scratch golfer and the bogey rating is not exceptionally difficult. Courses like this are better for the average golfer and probably more enjoyable for them as well. Just the combination of stuff that is needed on the golf business today.

John,

Couldn't agree more.  Also brought to mind Talking Stick North- 7133 yards,  72.7 rating, 123 slope......

I'd like to see a course with a 78 course rating and a 125 slope rating. Be a best of both worlds type affair. Certainly better than the Tobacco Road's of the world with their 73 course rating and 150 slope. Too many courses like that just isn't good for the game of golf. Courses with low slope ratings and high interest are very good for the game of golf.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 11:35:55 PM »
Green Tees -      ????   Yds   Par 71  Rating 71.3   Slope 127

And the rest can be found at http://www.exploreoregongolf.com/oregon-golf-association-course-detail.php?cnum=257&sec=rat

Lost Ball Over/Under is .5
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 11:44:23 PM by Pete_Pittock »

JC Urbina

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Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 11:56:19 PM »
Scott,

I am hoping that the fun rating is off the charts.


Chris Flamion

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2010, 12:41:47 AM »
We need more courses with course and slope ratings the compare like this. This means the course plays hard for the scratch golfer and the bogey rating is not exceptionally difficult. Courses like this are better for the average golfer and probably more enjoyable for them as well. Just the combination of stuff that is needed on the golf business today.

I couldn't agree more.  The trick is getting the general golfing public to understand how great these are.  How many people are going to walk off the course and be confused about the course until they look at their score card and see how many strokes they took?

Sometimes I forget that the board, as vocal and as passionate as it is, consists of such a small portion of golfers.  but that is another thread.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 12:47:33 AM »
Scott,

I am hoping that the fun rating is off the charts.



+1 to that - if the full eighteen plays anything like the preview then you, Tom, Mr K, and team will not have anything to worry about.

OM - Most fun you can have on a golf course . . .

John Moore II

Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2010, 12:53:26 AM »
Chris-You are correct, we are a very small portion of golfers, and probably not a very representative sample of the golfing public as a whole. However, I think most on here will agree that courses need to be highly interesting and playable for the average golfer.
Bandon is unique in how it has 4 world class golf courses under one umbrella. No other place can say that. Not Pebble, not Pinehurst, none of them. However, that is not my point. The courses at Bandon are playable for all groups and challenging for better players because of design and nature. Pinehurst does not have that. It has the (going with just the 5 main clubhouse courses) it has the one world class course, another stern challenge and then three courses that are highly enjoyable for all golfers. Bandon has 4 courses that are world class AND playable for all golfers. What a place. I really need to get there.
Golf courses must be designed with the average golfer in mind, or at least the target audience (for a public venue, that must be the average golfer). Too many courses want to target the better golfer and leave the average golfer to a slog around the course being semi-miserable. That is not what we need. We need more courses like Old Mac.

Jim Nugent

Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2010, 03:06:00 AM »
We need more courses with course and slope ratings the compare like this. This means the course plays hard for the scratch golfer and the bogey rating is not exceptionally difficult. Courses like this are better for the average golfer and probably more enjoyable for them as well. Just the combination of stuff that is needed on the golf business today.

John,

Couldn't agree more.  Also brought to mind Talking Stick North- 7133 yards,  72.7 rating, 123 slope......

I'd like to see a course with a 78 course rating and a 125 slope rating. Be a best of both worlds type affair. Certainly better than the Tobacco Road's of the world with their 73 course rating and 150 slope. Too many courses like that just isn't good for the game of golf. Courses with low slope ratings and high interest are very good for the game of golf.

CR at at 74.1 and Slope at 133 means Bogey = 98.8.  That does not seem all that easy to me. 

Hard for me to see how you could build/design a course with 125 slope aned 78 CR.  But if you did, Bogey = 101.2.  Very, very tough for the average guy.

If you want to know how hard a course is for the bogey golfer, look at CR first.  If it's high, the course is going to be tough.  Slope does not really show you much about that.  That is why I think they should drop slope altogether, and put Bogey Rating in its place.

Jim Urbina's idea is cool.  A fun rating.  That could be another list for GM, GD and the other golf mags to compile: the most fun courses in the world. 

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2010, 05:51:07 AM »
A fun rating is basically what GW's "Walk-in-the-Park" test is.  JC

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2010, 07:45:37 AM »
Scott:

That's one of the highest Slope Ratings of any of my courses, actually.  [Black Forest is an early exception.]  Slope rating for our courses has always tended toward the low side, because we tend to stay away from o.b., water, and lost ball situations.

Course ratings and slope tend to be quite different from one state to the next, so I never worry much about them.  I would not think that Old Macdonald would have as high of a course rating as Bandon Trails, but probably a bit higher than Pacific Dunes because of the extra length.  It does not strike me as being a very hard course ... eight of my team were just out there, and in two rounds they did not lose a ball.  A bad scoring round will generally include a lot of three-putts from 60 feet.

I will play it in 10 days with a good representative group (Evans Scholars donors), and will report back after that.

John Moore II

Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2010, 10:10:05 AM »
We need more courses with course and slope ratings the compare like this. This means the course plays hard for the scratch golfer and the bogey rating is not exceptionally difficult. Courses like this are better for the average golfer and probably more enjoyable for them as well. Just the combination of stuff that is needed on the golf business today.

John,

Couldn't agree more.  Also brought to mind Talking Stick North- 7133 yards,  72.7 rating, 123 slope......

I'd like to see a course with a 78 course rating and a 125 slope rating. Be a best of both worlds type affair. Certainly better than the Tobacco Road's of the world with their 73 course rating and 150 slope. Too many courses like that just isn't good for the game of golf. Courses with low slope ratings and high interest are very good for the game of golf.

CR at at 74.1 and Slope at 133 means Bogey = 98.8.  That does not seem all that easy to me. 

Hard for me to see how you could build/design a course with 125 slope aned 78 CR.  But if you did, Bogey = 101.2.  Very, very tough for the average guy.

If you want to know how hard a course is for the bogey golfer, look at CR first.  If it's high, the course is going to be tough.  Slope does not really show you much about that.  That is why I think they should drop slope altogether, and put Bogey Rating in its place.

Jim Urbina's idea is cool.  A fun rating.  That could be another list for GM, GD and the other golf mags to compile: the most fun courses in the world. 

Jim-I understand how slope rating is figured. What I was trying to say is that if we must find a way to have difficult courses for scratch players, then the lower the slope rating the better. You are correct, 78-125 is probably impossible, just because the scratch player has too many shots to combat the hazards that might be thrown at him. Those were just numbers I threw out to make an example.

Tom-I wish the lack of OB statement was true at Riverfront. I've had a phobia of the place for the last month or so and haven't returned since I bounced a ball off a guys roof on #8.  :o :o They built in those row houses to close to the course in some places out there. Nothing you could do about that though.

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2010, 10:20:41 AM »
We need more courses with course and slope ratings the compare like this. This means the course plays hard for the scratch golfer and the bogey rating is not exceptionally difficult. Courses like this are better for the average golfer and probably more enjoyable for them as well. Just the combination of stuff that is needed on the golf business today.

John,

Couldn't agree more.  Also brought to mind Talking Stick North- 7133 yards,  72.7 rating, 123 slope......

For what it's worth, TSN is a par 70.

Not sure I understand the relationship between CR and slope or how a course could have a higher CR and lower slope.  What elements make a course play harder for a scratch that wouldn't make it that much harder for the bogey.



jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2010, 11:02:18 AM »
Scott,

I am hoping that the fun rating is off the charts.



BINGO !....You want the reaction coming off Old Mac to be similar to what my brother (a Shinnecock & Creek Club member) said coming off Stone Eagle - " I can't imagine having more fun on a golf course ! " Then he said it again, walking off the course one year later. That's the highest praise possible, IMO.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2010, 03:59:30 PM »
It's cool to hear Jim speak of fun and to hear Tom say he doesn't design with course rating/slope in mind.  We've come a long way from the penal, target golf phase of architecture that Nicklaus, to name one, and even Dye to some extent have employed in recent years. 

A golf course that's challenging for the scratch golfer yet playable for the beginner - isn't that what all architects should strive for?  Although I do understand that many design to the wishes of their employer.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2010, 07:18:39 PM »
I know that Dr. Michael Hurdzan espoused the same theory in his writings and I found it to be true at Cook's Creek in south Columbus, Ohio.  It is the same way at Harvest Hill in Orchard Park, NY, and will eventually be that way at Diamond Hawk in Cheektowaga, NY (once they figure out that the firm and fast hummocks are more than enough of a challenge for the avg. golfer and do away with some of the thickets between holes.  They've already eliminated much of the high fescue between other holes.  Nature took care of a tree on a short par four, so even she is in on the plot!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2010, 12:17:22 AM »
I was out there 2 weeks ago when the OGA was doing their thing. A couple of interesting notes:

1. I asked 2 of the Women who were doing ratings what they thought of OM, and they both separately told me the course was "Outstanding!" They both said they had so much fun. One of them did say it was difficult, but fun. I had another well-versed female golfer who was playing then tell me she just loved the course.

2. Ran into a group of the Male raters playing 11 and 12, and they were having a blast trying to figure out how to navigate their 3rd shots on "Road" to the back pin from 20-40 yards short of the green. I followed them over to the tee on "Redan" and they were all over the place except for the last fellow who hit Driver right at the pin and ended up about 10 ft. He let out a big yell when he made the green. These guys were enjoying themselves too. They were playing the regular tees and were in their 50s and 60s age wise.

Seems like the course will have wide appeal.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 12:21:00 AM by Michael Robin »

Kai Hulkkonen

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Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2010, 07:01:30 AM »
We need more courses with course and slope ratings the compare like this. This means the course plays hard for the scratch golfer and the bogey rating is not exceptionally difficult. Courses like this are better for the average golfer and probably more enjoyable for them as well. Just the combination of stuff that is needed on the golf business today.

John,

Couldn't agree more.  Also brought to mind Talking Stick North- 7133 yards,  72.7 rating, 123 slope......

I'd like to see a course with a 78 course rating and a 125 slope rating. Be a best of both worlds type affair. Certainly better than the Tobacco Road's of the world with their 73 course rating and 150 slope. Too many courses like that just isn't good for the game of golf. Courses with low slope ratings and high interest are very good for the game of golf.

John,

Sand Valley Golf & Country Club in Poland by Tony Ristola and Lassi Pekka Tilander opened for play last fall (Tony has posted plenty of pics etc from the course in this forum). The course (par 72) has just been rated and is CR 75.0 and Slope 126 from the back (6530 meters). The course is very wide with practically no rough, heavily contoured greens and has about 40 bunkers. Advanced members play 5855 meters and the course rating is 71.6 and Slope is 119. Members (12+ hcp) play 5585 meters and the numbers are 69.9 and 116.

Should that be desired, there is still plenty of room for making the course harder from the back (not including adding length) without adding any difficulty for the players playing the shorter tees.

Maybe Tony (who is also a very competent player) will elaborate on what he thinks is the key for achieving high CR and low Slope.

Kai

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2010, 09:50:35 AM »
I understand that the greens at Old Mac at absolutely enormous and I was wondering if that is considered in a rating or slope or is it simply how difficult it is to hit the greens or how difficult the recovery shots are or how significant are the green contours?

Tom Huckaby

Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2010, 09:59:25 AM »
I understand that the greens at Old Mac at absolutely enormous and I was wondering if that is considered in a rating or slope or is it simply how difficult it is to hit the greens or how difficult the recovery shots are or how significant are the green contours?

It's all considered.  All criteria get 1-10 ratings.

Green Target - how difficult is it to get the approach shot on the green.  Enormous surfaces would contribute toward making these numbers low; however, significant contour or tiers would bump it up a number.  The green target number effects several other criteria (that is, what one gets for the others starts based on what target is).

Rough and Recovery - how difficult is it to recover around the greens and off the fairways.  Highly-contoured greens would mean one number up in target, and thus one number also up in R&R.

Green Surface - how difficult is the putting once on the surface.  Speed puts you in a column of figures, then contour gives the exact number.  Figuring these are not crazy fast (like the rest at Bandon) but the contours are significant, the numbers will be pretty high.

As for the general comments, back when I used to participate in here a lot, I campaigned quite vociferously for high CR, low slope.. for the exact reasons stated in this thread... challenge the scratch, give the bogey a break.  It is a tough trick to pull off.  But when it is, it typically translates to FUN.

There's a course in Colorado where this plays out very very very well.  Tom Doak would be quite familiar with it.  So before he tosses the USGA system under the bus as being different state to state (which they sure TRY not to have happen), well... he ought to at least keep CO in his good graces.

 ;)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2010, 10:10:28 AM »
Scott:


Course ratings and slope tend to be quite different from one state to the next

I wonder if somebody could expound on this a bit more?  Doesn't this throw the whole system into question a bit?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom Huckaby

Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2010, 10:21:10 AM »
Scott:


Course ratings and slope tend to be quite different from one state to the next

I wonder if somebody could expound on this a bit more?  Doesn't this throw the whole system into question a bit?

Tom Doak has his opinions, for sure.  Others share this.  But the truth is there is SO little subjectivity involved in doing course rating (it's damn near all measurements and numbers) it would be really tough to get results that are all that much different state to state.... it's all in a book how it is to be done....  on top of that, the  USGA - through "calibration" seminars at which most if not all of the state associations participate - works very hard for this NOT to happen.  Yes, if it did, it would throw the whole system into question.  I feel certain that SOME of this occurs... that the system isn't perfect... but I also feel certain that for the most part, the calibration works, and how raters in Alabama do their ratings does not differ from how those in New Jersey or Washington do theirs.


Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald Course Rating
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2010, 10:21:42 AM »
We need more courses with course and slope ratings the compare like this. This means the course plays hard for the scratch golfer and the bogey rating is not exceptionally difficult. Courses like this are better for the average golfer and probably more enjoyable for them as well. Just the combination of stuff that is needed on the golf business today.

+1....I agree wholeheartedly.