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Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« on: April 24, 2010, 02:12:48 PM »
www.savestandrews.com
 
Check out this interesting website.  It sure seems that Hamilton Hall could and should be used in ways that would do more for the game and its history than simply housing 26 multi- millionaires.  St. Andrews is such a special and important place and the debate over the use of this building seems to speak volumes about the spirit of our game.

I see that they are going to have a rally on May 2nd...any GCAers in St. Andrews at that time?
 
What do you all think?

Bart

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 03:57:33 PM »

Bart

Thanks for the heads up on Hamilton Hall and the link

I have always thought that the British Golf Museum looked like a coastal WW II Bunker just waiting for a shell to come from an old battleship to take it out of its misery. So I think the Hamilton Hall would be a great site to incorporate the Museum on the Ground and Basement floors. The Old site of the Museum could then be converted to a public toilet which it also seems to resemble.

Well don’t believe me here are two photos of the current British Golf Museum site – judge for yourselves.

Melvyn

                         



Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 05:41:07 PM »
I wouldn't mind luxury apartments if, indeed, something was given back to the game as well. The building and its site are iconic, so whoever wants to own part of it, should understand that and accept some responsibilities. On the other hand the economics need to work as well, so pipe dreams of a super public clubhouse aren't going to come to fruition. So I say let the rich guys have their flats, but make them give something back to the game as well.

Melvyn's idea is great, btw.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 09:04:12 PM »
 8)

Hamilton Hall
Hamilton Hall was built by Thomas Hamilton who was a local man who enlisted the help of several Glasgow hoteliers to develop this land that was originally owned by his father.
Opened in 1895 as the Grand Hotel
Hosted royalty and famous golfers including Bobby Jones
Requisitioned during World War II
Bought by University of St Andrews as students’ residence in 1949
Sold to Wasserman Group for timeshare development in 2005
Wasserman development failed to attract buyers
Bank of Scotland repossessed the building in 2009
Bank of Scotland sold the building to Herb Kohler in December 2009

Seems like Univ of St Andrews is culpable for its sale of the property..  have they no sense of history?


No love for the energy efficiency of the buried  museum?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2010, 12:52:28 AM »
A simple question. Where are the Scottish and English upholders of all things righteous in the preservation of the game? It would seem to me that it is those ghastly Americans with their motorized carts and funny baseball caps that put up the money and do something for St. Andrews.

Kohler did not destroy the old sheds and build the Old Course Hotel , it was Melvyn's countrymen. Kohler came along and pulled their chestnuts from the fire.

For anyone on this site to think that some fairy God-mother is going to replace a good old fashioned business deal for the good of golf, I suggest that they take an elementary business course.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2010, 01:06:56 AM »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2010, 06:30:58 AM »
A Bob H,

bringing the voice of reality from an insane kind of world. You are right but should one follow the voice from an insane world? ;)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2010, 06:31:53 AM »
A simple question. Where are the Scottish and English upholders of all things righteous in the preservation of the game? It would seem to me that it is those ghastly Americans with their motorized carts and funny baseball caps that put up the money and do something for St. Andrews.

Kohler did not destroy the old sheds and build the Old Course Hotel , it was Melvyn's countrymen. Kohler came along and pulled their chestnuts from the fire.

For anyone on this site to think that some fairy God-mother is going to replace a good old fashioned business deal for the good of golf, I suggest that they take an elementary business course.

Bob,

You sound like someone with some actual real world experience.  Are you available for an urgently needed spot in the current administration's cabinet?   :-\
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 06:50:02 AM »
I wouldn't mind luxury apartments if, indeed, something was given back to the game as well. The building and its site are iconic, so whoever wants to own part of it, should understand that and accept some responsibilities. On the other hand the economics need to work as well, so pipe dreams of a super public clubhouse aren't going to come to fruition. So I say let the rich guys have their flats, but make them give something back to the game as well.

Melvyn's idea is great, btw.

Ulrich

Ulrich and others:

St. Andrews is the home of golf.

The 60 million golfers worldwide deserve a "home" in the home of golf.

There is nothing immoral about Kohler's plan;  but to me, it would be a shame to see an important building on an even more important site be used solely for another luxury housing unit for the few.

I believe the group behind the website feels that there is a financially viable alternative...They made a significant offer on the building and would be investing a huge sum of money to buy and properly renovate the place.  And it is an alternative that seems to be more in line with the spirit of the game and the place.

Under the current plan, nothing would be given back to the game, and the opportunity lost forever.

Bart

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2010, 07:00:03 AM »
Bart,

I agree it would be a wonderful idea.  However, are you suggesting that Royal Bank of Scotland, which is already virtually bankrupt, swallow an additional 4 or 5 million pound loss, accept the lower bid in order to do something for the game?  Sadly, aside from some other white knight coming along, I'd doubt that it's in the cards....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2010, 07:03:14 AM »
Bob

Perhaps you have lived in America too long or do not think that highly regards the human spirit or more probably being a Member of The R&A concentrating more on money that the Game of Golf. Whatever for me the surprise is that the following comment came from you “Kohler did not destroy the old sheds and build the Old Course Hotel , it was Melvyn's countrymen. Kohler came along and pulled their chestnuts from the fire”.

The Old Course Hotel, not ideal and certainly not the location I would wish for but for the many overseas visitors who come to St Andrews a well located hotel for their purposes. Had a great hole, the 17th until someone at the R&A decided to tinker with its Tee after getting the Links Trust to agree.  I do not remember a fire in real terms or financial.

As for financial Bob you may think that you have made some interesting point but have you really got his finger on the pulse. Perhaps having just suffered one of the worst financial crises in world history the bankers have decided (at last) to show some caution. The old toxic loans which seem to have started with deals and agreements conducted on golf courses awash with carts with the consequence of not just polluting the worlds banking system but also our courses with said carts. History will no doubt confirm who these bankers were and why they did what they did and where they based themselves.

As for doing very little for their own country, what utter rubbish, we have made St Andrews the home of golf and if the Americans or anyone else wants to share some of her pleasure have we not made you all welcome but remember that was not down to the R&A but the town. Also lets not forget that St Andrews is also a University town with the financial benefits that brings.

Bob, me thinks its time for you to attend one of our resorts, to go through a detailed detox program as life is not always about money. Try and play Askernish and spend a few day on South Uist with some fishing thrown in before travelling to St Andrews. It will most certainly lift your human spirit to levels which may allow some compassion for the plight of others less fortunate than yourself. My uncle Sir Ian (a real Knight of the Realm) put money first but in doing so lost sight of his human touch.

Worship at the alter of success or money, but not all are the followers of your faith.

Let’s not forget the people own the Links at St Andrews, and thanks to them we are allowed to enjoy some great golf. So let me wish that you have a most enjoyable round the next time you are taking the Golf at St Andrews.

Melvyn  

PS  Brad, You have to be part of the In Crowd if you are hoping some of the golfing circle are going to put their money into Hamilton Hall. If you see that the R&A want something then it seems to nearly happen overnight with little resistance. But why would they be interested, its about golf and spending money not making it so don’t expect R&A involvement, golf is no longer their core business, acquiring money certainly seems to have taken over. Lets not forget many are in awe of this Governing Body, why I am still trying to understand as their track record is rather poor over the last 100 years..  


Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2010, 07:08:04 AM »
Bart,

I agree it would be a wonderful idea.  However, are you suggesting that Royal Bank of Scotland, which is already virtually bankrupt, swallow an additional 4 or 5 million pound loss, accept the lower bid in order to do something for the game?  Sadly, aside from some other white knight coming along, I'd doubt that it's in the cards....

Jud,

The bidding is over.  The article from above was dated (from Oct.).  Kohler owns the building and has announced his plans:  26 luxury flats.

I am suggesting that the town of St. Andrews and its people and golfers, in general, should ask Mr. Kohler to do something more noble with it...either himself, or to sell the building to someone who will.  I am not asking the Bank of Scotland to do anything at all as they are now out of the picture entirely.

Ask yourself this, by developing Hamilton Hall into luxury flats, Herb Kohler stands to profit a few million dollars (and he has that right).  But at what cost to golf, the town of St. Andrews and the spirit of golf?  Does Kohler really need a few more million?  Doesn't Hamilton Hall deserve a better fate?

Bart

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2010, 07:54:12 AM »

Bart

I feel you have a strong point but unless someone comes up with a suggestion as to how to proceed the dye is cast and we have the flats.

I would love to see the Museum/ Coffee Shop move from that bunker it calls a Museum to the Ground and Basement of Hamilton Hall with the floors above retained as flats. IMHO I feel it wrong to put in shops be they golfing shops or just ordinary as they would bring little to the building, but the Museum might. To think that the current bronze of Old Tom could be re located to stand between the lifts to the flats and the entrance to the Museum may in the mind of some add to the fact that this is a golfing building.



I know what we may wish and what we get may be two differing things, nevertheless I am with you on having the word Grand and Golf go together in this building. Just what combination could be achieved allowing a return on the original investment, yet give a real platform for golf.

Melvyn


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2010, 08:51:17 AM »
Let Mr Kohler do as he wishes subject to obtaining the permissions.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2010, 11:26:58 AM »
Here's an idea Melvyn:


Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2010, 11:43:18 AM »
So you're suggesting that Mr. Kohler make a charitable donation of several million to the town of St. Andrews?  Great Idea! Herb, are you listening? Maybe he could donate the lower half to the museum and make the upper half low cost housing for plumbing laborers?  Maybe we could charge every out of town guest a VAT on their round at the Old Course to pay for it.  How about a soup kitchen in the basement for over-the-hill caddies? Maybe turn the whole thing into a homeless shelter? It's called capitalism boys...If you don't like it, I hear there's some nice land for golf in Cuba....
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 11:45:38 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2010, 12:21:22 PM »

Jud

We or some of us live in the real world so I would not expect the Museum to move by the charity of Mr Kohler but by the area being bought outright. It’s a commercial venture so he expects to make a healthy profit, nothing wrong in that.

Bart wanted a golfing connection, the most useful that would minimise noise for the luxury flats above would be a Museum. The Museum’s current site is awful, yet I can see advantages for it moving to Hamilton Hall. To try and install golfing shops would I believe not be viable, can’t build an indoor putting green, so what else is there to satisfy potential requirements of buyers for the luxury flats.

As for Cuba, please visit them instead of coming to St Andrews, its closer and will save you money. See, we can all benefit by your generosity and you get to save a load of money by not playing TOC. ;D

Melvyn     

PS Kelly, You seem to forget its The Kindom of Fife in the UK and anway its golf which is not a People's Republic game, they fail at the first hurdle Etiquette, but then they are not the only ones. As for the other building do what you want but wait till the next AGm before doing a Guy. There is a good chance the members will feel nothing as normally found to be more in a Rip Van Winkle state, don't think some know about WWI yet. ;)

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2010, 12:24:51 PM »
Actually Jud, I'm only suggesting he donate the top two floors to charity, the rest he should make a reasonable profit upon.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2010, 01:44:00 PM »
Melvyn,

Why the bile?

What on earth has my membership in the R&A have to do with this discussion? As for being in America too long strikes me as a silly generalization that all  we think about here is the acquisition of money. if it were not for the monies raised from 'furriners' many of your clubs would be in sad shape.

I have a Life Membership in a golf club for my Services to Golf, I trust you have the same.

You speak highly of the early pioneers of the game in Scotland and rightly so, but when you read of the crowds and size of the purses, even in those days, it really is all about the money.


Bob


Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2010, 02:01:27 PM »


Bob

No bile or disrespect intended, please re read it as if we were talking over a pint. It is all about money, I know had family problems on that side but some of us care more for the game, if that’s bile, then guilty as charged.

If its bile to suggest that you return for some R&R and play Askernish then again Guilty as charged, but if read with a pint and facing you I see no unpleasantness from my side.

Bob, methinks you doth protest too much

Melvyn

Mike Sweeney

Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2010, 02:19:17 PM »


As for financial Bob you may think that you have made some interesting point but have you really got his finger on the pulse. Perhaps having just suffered one of the worst financial crises in world history the bankers have decided (at last) to show some caution. The old toxic loans which seem to have started with deals and agreements conducted on golf courses awash with carts with the consequence of not just polluting the worlds banking system but also our courses with said carts. History will no doubt confirm who these bankers were and why they did what they did and where they based themselves.

As for doing very little for their own country, what utter rubbish, we have made St Andrews the home of golf and if the Americans or anyone else wants to share some of her pleasure have we not made you all welcome but remember that was not down to the R&A but the town. Also lets not forget that St Andrews is also a University town with the financial benefits that brings.


Melvyn,

It was St Andrews University that picked the pockets of the Americans at the top of the market in 2005.

http://www.boston.com/sports/golf/articles/2006/05/25/grand_vision_soon_to_be_shared/

Will you be asking them to kick in some of their profits?

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2010, 04:07:26 PM »
Melvyn,

There are few golfers who have as much regard for Scottish golf as I do, hence my love for such quirky venues as Traigh and Spaen Bridge. I doubt that I'll ever make it to Askernish. I do hope to share a pint with you though, no matter where it will be.

Bob

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2010, 06:00:51 PM »
8)

Hamilton Hall
Hamilton Hall was built by Thomas Hamilton who was a local man who enlisted the help of several Glasgow hoteliers to develop this land that was originally owned by his father.
Opened in 1895 as the Grand Hotel
Hosted royalty and famous golfers including Bobby Jones
Requisitioned during World War II
Bought by University of St Andrews as students’ residence in 1949
Sold to Wasserman Group for timeshare development in 2005
Wasserman development failed to attract buyers
Bank of Scotland repossessed the building in 2009
Bank of Scotland sold the building to Herb Kohler in December 2009

Seems like Univ of St Andrews is culpable for its sale of the property..  have they no sense of history?


No love for the energy efficiency of the buried  museum?

Steve,

I know you are probably only kidding but I will jump to the University's defence just in case! 

They got a great deal that meant that could build multiple new and improved facilites including another hall of residence at the edge of town.  They struggle for cash as our Alumni system is way short of the structured one you guys have.

While the builidng is fantastic outside, inside it needs a lot of work....

And as to the sense of history comment.  My University was founded in 1413  ;)  They bought the building in 1949....hardly like selling St. Salvators further along the scores.

597 years and still going strong thanks to good business decisions like this one!!
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2010, 06:58:12 PM »
Save St. Andrews? 

Where was this crowd when they bastardized The Eden?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Do your part to save St. Andrews!
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2010, 08:24:45 PM »

Michael

I think you mean saving golfing traditions because if we don’t when THEY go to lay cart tracks on Eden that will do more than bastardize the course, it will kill the whole links, so perhaps St Andrews need saving but from whom?

Maybe The Little House on the St Andrews Prairie may not be behind the change but probably did little in defence of the St Andrews game.

Save St Andrews by all means but currently its does not need saving.

Bart, It would certainly be great to see Hamilton Hall have some serious association with golf rather than just a load of flats – good try

Melvyn