What Do We Think of Abercromby?

[JNC Lyon]

Sean,

There are many, many Golden Age courses where we don't know exactly which architects designed what features.  I think it is impossible to rule at an architect as a designer of a certain golf course because we don't what exactly he did at said golf course.  We wouldn't have any architects left to credit! 

At Addington, we don't know how much of the course is Abercromby's work, even though we are sure he designed much of the final layout.  We are also pretty sure that Colt had a hand in the final design.  What exactly did he do? Unknown.  However, we need to keep his name on the list of credits and find out roughly what he did at Addington.

All,

Sorry for the misspelled title.  I swear, Abercromby and Abercomby looked identical to me!

[Sean_A]

Sean
Please don't be guilty of the same thing you are accusing Tom Mac of in regards to 'proof' - you say "I seem to recall" regarding Darwin and his apparent misattribution. If you have evidence of this I would suggest you check and possibly post it if you can (as I would like to see it given I have been researching Darwin for 5 years or so), because from my knowledge Darwin was rarely, if ever, in error in these attribution matters. Remember he was a friend and contemporary of men like Colt, Alison, Mackenzie, Fowler etc. and it was his job to find out what they were up to for his various writings for the Times, Country Life etc etc etc.

I doubt we will ever know precisely what Colt did with Abercromby at the Addington, but there is well documented evidence as Tom listed that he was involved in some way. Can you provide evidence he wasn't involved? Pretty hard to do that I would have thought given the evidence to the contrary.

Similarly I am trying to see if Mackenzie was involved in the design of the Eden with Colt. I have now just found that he went to St Andrews in July 1920 as part of a week's northern trip of consulting to other Scottish and northern England courses - and consulted upon both the New and the Eden. Exactly why I don't know and whether he was just consulting as the available partner (this was right at the start of the partnership) is most likely. Whether this suggests a pre war involvement in the design of the Eden may be drawing a long bow. Fascinating either way.

cheers Neil

Neil

Produce evidence Colt wasn't involved?  Yes, it is hard to prove the negative.

It was actually Tommy Mac who said Darwin wrote that Alison designed #17 at Burnham,  I may or may not have seen actual article, but it doesn't matter - I trust Tommy Mac.  Maybe Alison did design the 17th, but Colt was the priniple so Colt gets the credit so far as I am concerned. 

I said I had no problem with Colt involvemnent at Addy, but co-design may be a stretch.

Ciao                     

[JMorgan]

Even if you don't get to play it, have a walk over Coombe Hill. The 14th is a very good short par four which was highly praised by Bobby Jones. The short holes are strong and there are some demanding longer par fours such as the 5th, 8th, 11th and 16th.

Word. 

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
I don't know exactly what Colt did at Addington, just like I don't know exactly what Hunter did at Cypress Point and the Valley Club or what Park did at Worplesdon and Coombe Hill or what Bell did at Riviera or Bel Air. Should they not get co-design credit?

What evidence do you have that Abercromby deserves solo credit for Addington-Old?

[Sean_A]

Sean
I don't know exactly what Colt did at Addington, just like I don't know exactly what Hunter did at Cypress Point and the Valley Club or what Park did at Worplesdon and Coombe Hill or what Bell did at Riviera or Bel Air. Should they not get co-design credit?

What evidence do you have that Abercromby deserves solo credit for Addington-Old?

Tommy Mac

So you believe a "consult" deserves co-design credit?  That is fair enough.  Therein lies our difference of opinion and it would seem the matter need not be discussed further unless Aber gave credit to Colt or there is more evidence. 

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Are you just being a contrarian? Yes, based on everything I've seen consulting in this case does deserve co-design credit. You have two contemporaneous articles having both men working on the course together. You have third article with CH Alison stating the course was designed by Colt. Do you believe Alison was lying? And finally you have Colt advertising the course as one of his designs - a man of great integrity I might add. Do you believe Colt was engaged in false advertising?

[Sean_A]

Are you just being a contrarian? Yes, based on everything I've seen consulting in this case does deserve co-design credit. You have two contemporaneous articles having both men working on the course together. You have third article with CH Alison stating the course was designed by Colt. Do you believe Alison was lying? And finally you have Colt advertising the course as one of his designs - a man of great integrity I might add. Do you believe Colt was engaged in false advertising?

Tommy Mac

Heavy sigh.  You can't have it both ways.  Either Colt consulted or Colt co-designed.  You can't use all your citations to mean the same thing.  Consulting and being the designer are different things.  I can accept if "consult" was used in a way to mean Colt co-designed - if it can be shown what Colt signed off on or if co-designed and consult meant the same thing back then. 

Ciao

[Neil_Crafter]

Sean
Heavier sigh.
While there is obviously some doubt about the level of Colt's involvement, what is not in doubt is that there was one, what with sources from Darwin, to Alison, to Colt himself in their advertising. All men of high integrity. The work we have been doing on investigating the big list of courses in Mackenzie's 1923 brochure has revealed not even one false claim! And if Mackenzie was not making false claims about courses he was involved with we can at the very least expect the same from Harry Colt.

[Scott Warren]

Neil/Tom Mac:

What's the lowest form of involvement you know Colt of having on a course he listed in advertising? The quality of the one-shotters at The Addington, as well as the similarity of 7 to 11 at Denham (pointed out to me by Robin Hiseman) have me open to accepting that he may have done quite a bit there, I just hadn't seen anything that said so clearly.

Also, I recall Tom Mac posting a clipping that credited West Byfleet GC to Aber, while the club from memory credited Butchart. Was that an error in the newspaper, an error by the club or was it a case of one re-designing the other's work there?

[Tom MacWood]

Scott
From what I understand Butchart laid out the original course in 1904, and Abercromby either redesigned the old course or laid out a new one in 1922. I'm not sure which. Butchart was in the US in 1922.

Here is an advertisement that lists a number of golf courses, including Addington. I think all these courses are well documented Colt/Alison designs or redesigns.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Neil/Tom Mac:

What's the lowest form of involvement you know Colt of having on a course he listed in advertising?

Good question and one I don't feel qualiifed to answer.  I do know of a no of courses where he did a hole of two and didn't include them in adverts.

[Sean_A]

Scott
From what I understand Butchart laid out the original course in 1904, and Abercromby either redesigned the old course or laid out a new one in 1922. I'm not sure which. Butchart was in the US in 1922.

Here is an advertisement that lists a number of golf courses, including Addington. I think all these courses are well documented Colt/Alison designs or redesigns.

Tommy Mac & Neil

Pine Valley?  So, Colt was the man of record and not Crump?  To me, this is a very mis-leading ad.  At the very least Crump should be mentioned.  Same goes for Addy.  But then, ads are not designed to be accurate, they are designed to attract business and thus should always be taken with a grain of salt.  Once again, to me there is a big difference between "consult" and "co-design".  Perhaps you think it is semantics, but I would disagree. That in no way means that Colt wasn't involved in Addy, I am sure he was, but unless one can come up with some sort of evidence other than what I would call conflicting news articles and self-promotional ads, it is hard to understand how one can conclude Colt was a co-designer at Addy.

Just to be sure you know where I am coming from.

Consult - is offering advice or an opinion

Co-design is a team effort where no party is more important to the project than the other co-designers. 

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
Now you really are being a contrarian. Not only was Colt the architect of record (with Crump), CH Alison redesigned the golf course, so he is on the record too.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Neil/Tom Mac:

What's the lowest form of involvement you know Colt of having on a course he listed in advertising?

Good question and one I don't feel qualiifed to answer.  I do know of a no of courses where he did a hole of two and didn't include them in adverts.

Did Colt ever mention Portmarnock in his advertising Tony?...

[Tom MacWood]

Colt did list Portmarnock as a course he advised, as opposed to designed or redesigned.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Colt did list Portmarnock as a course he advised, as opposed to designed or redesigned.

Thanks Tom...

1919 was the date... I'd just love to find out what he advised...

[Sean_A]

Sean
Now you really are being a contrarian. Not only was Colt the architect of record (with Crump), CH Alison redesigned the golf course, so he is on the record too.

Tommy Mac

Not at all.  You often choose to highlight/misconstrue certain aspects of articles you come across while downplaying other aspects.  I can fully understand this approach if it were presented as an opinion rather than fact; a distinction you seem to blur on many an occasion.  

For instance, in this case you have taken the word "consult/ing" to mean co-designer/designer then treated all the citations as similar in a what you believe to be an overwhelming case.  I merely pointed out the difference in the language actually used and what it could mean as far as Addy attribution.  So far as the ad goes, I have already explained that Colt was A designer of Pine Valley, not THE designer of Pine Valley.  This is a huge difference which the ad does not in anyway reveal.  

I am happy to be led to the evidence which suggests Colt was a co-designer of Addy.  Or at the very least, explain what it is you mean by "co-design" and how it differs from "consult/ing" if you are using these terms differently from the normal and accepted definitions.  Failing this, perhaps you can show how "consult" really meant co-designer back in the day.  It could well be that the language chosen by the authors of the articles was a euphemism for designer or co-designer, but I would like to know why you suspect this if you think it to be the case.  There are endless possibilities, but at the moment they strike me as possibilities rather than cut and dried facts as you have suggested.  It seems the most we can say is Colt was involved at Addy, but even that can mean as little as his suggestion were not heeded or as great as Colt was the designer. 

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Ally
I don't know exactly what he advised on, but I do know Colt and Cairnes were friends.

[Scott Warren]

Tom Mac,

What level of involvement does your assorted literature prove Colt had at The Addington?

[Paul_Turner]

I'm sure we keep repeating this, but anyway, some Addington ("design Colt, constructed Aber") and:

[Scott Warren]

Thanks Paul.

Interesting to read the article says that at the time of writing it had no bunkers.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Any guesses to which holes are pictured at The Addington or Sunningdale?

[Scott Warren]

You reckon it might be 13 at The Addington, Tony?

Or maybe 5 from a shorter tee?

[Sean_A]

Paul

That article has made the rounds, but I forgot about it - cheers.  What do you make of the contradictions between articles?  Is it possible Colt could have advised on a general routing and left Aber to fill out the details?  If so, what may have precipitated such an arrangement - assuming it was planned this way?  When did Colt go to the States/Canada - I am thinking he made it back for "duties" in WWI and if so, did these "duties" and/or the trip to N America preclude him from finishing this job?  I can't think of a heck of a lot Colt completed during the war years.   

Ciao

[JNC Lyon]

You reckon it might be 13 at The Addington, Tony?

Or maybe 5 from a shorter tee?

That picture has to be of 13.  Addington looked completely different in the early days with all of the trees stripped away.  I am not sure if I prefer the old look or the new look.