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Jobst von Steinsdorff

Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2010, 04:17:15 PM »
Tony,

thank your for linking this thread, which tells me I need to go back there again rather sooner than later. At the point in time I was there I unfortunately was not really into architecture yet (it was just a nice place to go as my stepfather used to have a house there - and was member at Hossegor). While I liked playing some of the courses much better than what I was used to, I probably didn't appreciate them fully a couple of yeras back (it must have been just a few months earlier than your trip).

Looking at the cited ratings from the guide I probably made a good pick (Biarritz Le Phare, Hossegor, Makila, Moliets, Seignosse, Golf de la Nivelle and St. Sebastian (while of course not actually in France, but in the region - Hossegor memebers had playing privileges there), while I think Makila is overrated and I would prefer Moliets (with the links-style holes on the beach in what is otherwise a parkland layout) over Seignosse (the fairway undulations are just overdone and look unnatural). However it hurts to have left out Chiberta and Chantaco ...

But I'm afraid this is slowly turning OT ... unless Brian can arrange for an extra stopover there  ;)

Matthew,

I haven't played Budersand but - as already pointed out - it must be a great place. Anyway besides Budersand there would be a lot more courses in Germany worth going, but Brian's schedule will unfortunately not get him near them - especially as it leaves out the Hamburg and Frankfurt/Rhein-Main region, where many of the older German clubs and courses are.

Brian,

I came across another suggestion. Beisdes Christoph's proposals on courses to see from Duisburg (which are all fine but Cologne and Düsseldorf are not the nearest of place) you may want to consider Krefelder Golf Club (http://www.krefelder-gc.de/), which is closer to Duisburg and a 1939 Bernhard von Limburger design. I have not been there yet, but it's on my personal to play list (may be in the area in late August).

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2010, 04:40:50 PM »


Brian,

I came across another suggestion. Beisdes Christoph's proposals on courses to see from Duisburg (which are all fine but Cologne and Düsseldorf are not the nearest of place) you may want to consider Krefelder Golf Club (http://www.krefelder-gc.de/), which is closer to Duisburg and a 1939 Bernhard von Limburger design. I have not been there yet, but it's on my personal to play list (may be in the area in late August).

Hello Jobst,

it's interesting that you are recommending a course you haven't played (Krefeld) in comparison to other courses I mentionned - Krefeld is a nice course but on a very flat piece of land. Düsseldorf-Hubbelrath and Kosiado are 30km away from Duisburg, exactly the same distance than Duisburg-Krefeld. Refrath is 70km from Duisburg, but might be worth the trip....also a von Limburger / Karl Hoffmann masterpiece..some experts consider it to be the best course in the region.

Concerning Beuerberg I must say that it is considered to be one of the best courses Donald Harradine has ever designed. You are not the only one saying the club atmosphere is nouveau-rich - but then golf in Germany these days is full of nouveau-rich anyway - a part from that I liked the Beuerberg course and this forum here is mostly about golf-architecture, so why not recommend Beuerberg to Brian...I think it is the best course ever designed by Anglo-Swiss architect Donald Harradine (1982) - but that is my personal opinion only....

Also let me correct a small detail: The course of Garmisch-Partenkirchen GC was designed during the early 1970s as a nine-hole course and later extended to 18-holes. The original 1930 Bernhard von Limburger 9-hole course which was formerly the home of Garmisch-Partenkirchen Golf Club is a few km nearer to Garmisch and since 1945 operated by the US Army. A nice historic course but maybe and like Oberau not worth the trip from Munich if your time is restricted, mind you the views of the Alps are spectacular from both courses...(see enclosed picture from the German magazine Golf, 1931)

Greetings

Christoph
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 05:42:52 PM by Christoph Meister »
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Jobst von Steinsdorff

Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2010, 06:17:59 PM »
Christoph,

if you feel I've critizised your recommendations, this is not the case (the "it's interesting" part to me sounded like I had broken a rule not to talk about courses you haven't played ...). My points were just supposed to be supplementary comments.

Regarding the Duisburg area Krefeld just came to my mind, because from what I've heard and read it is one of the courses I want to see, while Niederrheinischer GC is not an that list (at least yet, maybe I've just missed it). Exactly because I have not played it, I haven't in any way recommended it, but said "you may want to consider" giving Brian another idea to research further and inviting comments on it from people more knowledgeable about it - like you appear to be. And honestly I was not aware that Duisburg-Hubbelrath is actually the same distance as Duisburg-Krefeld - I'm not too familiar with the region and felt Krefeld was nearer and gladly stand corrected (while the drive may still be a little quicker?). I certainly concur that Refrath is a more interesting place than Krefeld if that isn't too far off - Hubbelrath probably as well, I just thought it was an interesting course a little nearer to Duisburg - and was mistaken as to the distance.

As far as Beuerberg is concerned, it is without a doubt a very good colf course (especially the routing) and if you want to study Donald Harradine in particular it may even be a must. However it is pretty far off and a newer design (where Brian said he'd be more interested in older courses). While you are right that the atmosphere does not hurt the quality of the design, I feel it somehow flaws the overall experience of being there, so I - just as I said - would not consider it a must, while I certainly would not advise against it, I would just not rank it that high given the specific circumstances.

Regarding Garmisch that's not a small detail, but a major mistake on my part: I was told by a friend who is very fond of the course (but that of course doen't mean he really knows about the club's history) that the course in Oberau was in fact the old one (and had 18 holes from the beginning), which was used by the US Army and later returned to the club and the smaller 9 hole course was built as a replacement (while the Army was using the original one). I read about Garmisch in the DGV's publication for their centennial and was not really enlightened by that about Garmisch's history ... so I learned a lot more here ...

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2010, 04:08:20 AM »
Jobst,

thank you for your kind answer - there is of course nothing like such a rule and you can freely recommend golf courses you haven't played but read about or just visited...as long as you propose courses designed by von Limburger!  ;)

The reason you didn't here about the Niederrheinischer GC at Duisburg is probably because it is only a 9-hole course and certainly not that spectacular - but it is course designed more than 50 years ago by a German golf architect H.E. Gaertner who also joined up with John Morrison to design Hamburg-Hittfeld...unfortunately Gaertner died before the project at Hamburg-Hittfeld started so Morrison finished designing the Hittfeld course himself. Maybe for a student of golf architecture who is in Duisburg anyway the Niederrheinischer Golf Club might be worth a visit even if it is only 9 holes.

I have enclosed Gaertner's original plan for Hittfeld and the modified plan he did together with Morrison to give an example of Gaertner's work. Gaertner also designed the 9-hole course of Münchener GC at Thalkirchen which you have mentionned before.

As a co-author of the centenary book of the German Golf Federation I feel sorry that this work didn't enlighten you on Garmisch history but hopefully I have made up for that a little bid now - you might recognize my enclosed photo from the centenary book...
showing the entrance to the 1930 designed old 9-hole course.

I have also enclosed two sketches of Hamburg-Hitffeld for those of you who are interested in architectural plans...

Jobst, do you have any photos you could post here showing how beautiful Strasslach is? Personally I would be very intereseted in that and maybe it could give Briean an idea what to expect...

Greetings

Christoph
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 04:39:27 AM by Christoph Meister »
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2010, 04:49:07 AM »
I have heard very good reports from friends who played Noordwijk. If you get a Dutch version of the homepage, click on the little British flag near the top of the homepage. Click on "directions" and there is a Google Maps picture of the course.

http://www.noordwijksegolfclub.nl/

Jobst von Steinsdorff

Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2010, 12:52:57 PM »
Christoph,

thank your for deeper enligthenment here than in the DGV book ;).

Funny enough I casually know a member from Niederrheinischer GC, who unfortunately has not yet brought across the point that it is an architecturally interesting course. Not much to my surprise though, as you find very few people in Germany that spend attention to GCA. (While I know a memeber from Krefeld as well who - obviously succesfully - advertises the architectural merits of his course!

As far as Thalkirchen is concerned are you sure it was Gaertner? I know the Gaertner ad where it says, he (or they) had designed a Golf Course in Munich, however the secretary in Thalkirchen told me it was a self-made project done by some Club members (I had assumed particularly including Dr. Roemer who must have been the greatest Golf nut around). Which I tended to believe as some features on the Course would lead me to think that it was not done by a professional designer. E.g. the three is a Par 3 of 120m, where you find a huge cross bunker with quite a steep face (somehow looks like a toy model of Hell bunker) about 60-70m from the tee. While it has some visual appeal, it only comes into play for the weakest of players (whom you really pity, when you see some while you are passing them playing number two) and I tend to think that carrying 80m was not really a heroic achievment even in the 1950s. Features like this brought me to believe that this should not be the work of a reknown architect. But I assume you have more material on Thalkirchen to verify that it was Gaertner? I am really interested in this one!

Well, for Garmisch my confusion may result from having heard the wrong story first and having tried to push it into that framework when I read the book. BTW really great work (while I would have preffered more dates and times to put things into a timeline) - congratulations! Of course I also remember the picture you posted!

Finally regarding Strasslach I thought I had some pictures from a friend, but I actually don't. I should always take a camera for Golf in the future ... Anyway I guess you are aware of the photos the Club has posted on the Internet, which can be found at http://www.golf.de/golfclub/mgc/dia.cfm, when you select "Golfplatz Strasslach - Platzfotos" from the dropdown menu. However the pictures don't do the course justice. It is way more beutiful, than it looks there, most pictures are also from the C loop whose looks are not so appealing. The lone tree in the bunker (in the corner of a dogleg) is however Limburger's work (A5 if I remeber correctly). Unfortunately I won't be able to get better pictures before Brian's trip!

Cheers

Jobst

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2010, 03:23:18 PM »
Budersand in Germany looks terrific in pictures.  Based on the fact that it hasn't been mentioned, should I assume it photographs better than it plays?

No, it's just way to remote from any of the places Brian is visiting.

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2010, 05:19:18 PM »

As far as Thalkirchen is concerned are you sure it was Gaertner? I know the Gaertner ad where it says, he (or they) had designed a Golf Course in Munich, however the secretary in Thalkirchen told me it was a self-made project done by some Club members (I had assumed particularly including Dr. Roemer who must have been the greatest Golf nut around). Which I tended to believe as some features on the Course would lead me to think that it was not done by a professional designer. E.g. the three is a Par 3 of 120m, where you find a huge cross bunker with quite a steep face (somehow looks like a toy model of Hell bunker) about 60-70m from the tee. While it has some visual appeal, it only comes into play for the weakest of players (whom you really pity, when you see some while you are passing them playing number two) and I tend to think that carrying 80m was not really a heroic achievment even in the 1950s. Features like this brought me to believe that this should not be the work of a reknown architect. But I assume you have more material on Thalkirchen to verify that it was Gaertner? I am really interested in this one!


Jobst,

as you correctly state there are so few golf club member and players in Germany that care about golf architecture in Germany. Unfortunately this often also applies to golf club secretaries even in the most renowned courses in Germany as they tend to repeat what someone else has told them instead of viewing their own archives or historic sources. I'll send you a scan of the article from the German magazine "Golf" reporting about the opening of Thalkirchen and I will try to find out whether this 120m Par 3 with the huge cross bunkers is original "Gaertner" or has been added later.

During the 1950's Gaertner was considered a respected golf architect in Germany. He had his first contacts with golf architecture as a club secretary while supervising minor redesign works during the 1930s at Berlin-Wannsee and Frankfurt. Compared to the names that are usually featured in this forum he was of course a "nobody". The "München" golfcourse from the Gaertner/Morrison athat I posted is referring to Thalkirchen as at that time Strasslach was not even planned and the old course at Munich-Freimann long gone (around 1937)...

Will keep you updated on what I can find out about Thalkirchen. Played the course once maybe 20 years ago when I was a student...I quite liked it because it was so near the city...

Cheers,

Christoph
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Jobst von Steinsdorff

Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2010, 12:58:24 PM »
Thank you Christoph,

I'm much looking forward to more information on Thalkirchen, in particular the mentioned article from its opening.

Regarding club secretaries I generally agree with your view, however in this particular case he does this for a retirement occupation only, has been playing golf for over 50 years and had been serving as managing director of the Bavarian Golf Federation for over 10 years - and is full of stories about the good old times.

In the meantime I got my hands across the chronicle published for the Club's 75th anniversary in 1985 (I hope there will be a more comprehensive one out this year ...). Indeed they also state Gaertner as architect at least for the first 6 holes (today's holes 1-4 and 8-9), while it is not really clear whether the new 3 holes added a couple of years later were also Gaertner. Anyway the 3 is for sure, however a routing plan they have in there shows the mentioned bunker not as a huge cross bunker but just covering the right half of the hole. However it also looks like the teeing ground may have been moved forward (later or in deviation to the original plan, so the bunker may have made more sense).

Anyway, I'm looking forward to any more information you may have about Thalkirchen.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2010, 02:10:09 PM »
Brian:

Based on the schedule you've given, I would just try to break away for a day in Amsterdam and/or Paris to see what you can see.

The Netherlands has several links and several heathland courses and seeing one of each would be great for you.  Kennemer is probably the easiest links to access from Amsterdam, as there is a train to Zandvoort and it's not too far from the station.

The other course I would recommend strongly is De Pan, a Colt heathland course near Utrecht ... probably only a 40-minute train ride from Amsterdam Central.

If you don't have time for De Pan, you can also try to get up to Morfontaine while near Paris, but access there would probably be a lot harder for a walk-in visitor.  In fact, it would be an excellent idea to write these clubs in advance to let them know you are coming ... a letter to the green chairman might do the trick.

Tom

How well did you think De Pan stood up against the London area heaths?

Christoph

Great informative posts as usual.  Thanks.
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