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Brian Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf Courses to see in Europe
« on: April 20, 2010, 01:26:38 PM »
Need your help guys, especially you Europeans!  I will be going on a study abroad trip through Western Europe with the Landscape Architecture department at VT between May 15 and June 22.  We will be making stops in several different cities in several different countries (which I will list below) and what we do, see, and study is basically up to us, within the parameters of whichever city we happen to be in at the time.  With my intentions of focusing a large portion of the remainder of my studies here on GCA, I would love to be able to visit some courses that are worthy of seeing/studying from a GCA perspective.  Unfortunately, we will not have the chance to see Scotland, Ireland, or most of GB while we are over there, so that will have to wait until some other time.  Keep in mind, I will not have my clubs, so this will be as a study only and I would like to try to set something up with a few courses before I leave.  Also keep in mind that any course I have the chance to visit will likely have to be in or very close to the city we are staying in as we have little opportunity to stray too far away at any point.

London, UK (2 days)
Paris, France (4 days)
Lille, France (2 days)
Amsterdam, Netherlands (4 days)
Duisburg, Germany (2 days)
Berlin, Germany (4 days)
Munich, Germany (3 days)
Stuttgart, Germany (3 days)
Basel, Switzerland (3 days)
Zurich, Switzerland (2 days)

Thanks in advance for your help guys!!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 01:29:14 PM by Brian Ross »
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2010, 01:31:54 PM »
Brian,

Is it group travel between those cities (ie. no chance for you to stop en route to see something)?

You are visiting some amazing cities. Half your luck!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2010, 01:44:22 PM »
Amsterdam: Kennemer
London: Addington, Sunningdale, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Walton Heath
Paris: Morfontaine
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2010, 02:20:25 PM »
Brian - in London I'd go for Sunningdale for Colt & Willie Park Jnr. You should have time in the afternoon to take the train to Woking. If you can get the train from London to Deal visit Royal Cinque Ports and Royal St Georges for some varied links, it would be a shame to miss out on studying a couple of links courses, PM me if this is a possibilty as I maybe able to arrange a host. Deal is 2 hours on the train but there will be plenty of light and depending on group size you maybe able to get a group ticket.
Cave Nil Vino

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2010, 03:17:43 PM »
Brian:

I might be able to help with the German cities...

Berlin's most traditional layout is Berlin-Wannsee, one of Germany's oldest courses and a very solid parkland course.
The other course that might be worth checking out in Berlin is the Faldo Course at the Sporting Club Berlin, a late 90's Nick Faldo inland "links-style" design. Will be disappointing if you just come from the "real" links of England, but for German standards it is a good course. Way too tight and penal though, which makes it Germany's toughest course (CR 75,1: slope 147)....

In Munich there's very little to see. München-Eichenried is a European Tour venue, but nothing really special. A relatively modern parkland design, located on deadly flat ground. It's a solid course, but if you only have 3 days, I'd rather be checking out the charms of Munich.

Stuttgart has a very good Von Limburger-design called Stuttgart-Solitude, a hilly parkland course. It's the only course I know in that region.

As for Duisburg, there are several parkland courses that might be worth a look in the region called the Ruhrpott. The ones I can think of right now are  Hubbelrath (home of Martin Kaymer), Krefelder and Köln Refrath, but  they might all be a bit of a drive (maybe 1/2 or 1 hour).

Go to www.golfarchitecturepictures.com to check out photos of some of these courses.

If you go from Stuttgart to Duisburg, Frankfurt is on your way. I would be able to help you out at Frankfurter GC, a late 20's Colt course recently remodelled.

Cheers and good luck.

If you have any questions regarding germany, pm me  ;)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2010, 03:37:20 PM »
Brian:

Based on the schedule you've given, I would just try to break away for a day in Amsterdam and/or Paris to see what you can see.

The Netherlands has several links and several heathland courses and seeing one of each would be great for you.  Kennemer is probably the easiest links to access from Amsterdam, as there is a train to Zandvoort and it's not too far from the station.

The other course I would recommend strongly is De Pan, a Colt heathland course near Utrecht ... probably only a 40-minute train ride from Amsterdam Central.

If you don't have time for De Pan, you can also try to get up to Morfontaine while near Paris, but access there would probably be a lot harder for a walk-in visitor.  In fact, it would be an excellent idea to write these clubs in advance to let them know you are coming ... a letter to the green chairman might do the trick.

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2010, 03:43:41 PM »
Hi Brian,

here are my proposals for Germany:


Duisburg, Germany (2 days)

At Duisburg you could visit Niederrheinischer GC, a 1950's layout by H.E.Gaertner --> http://www.ngcd.de/Ngcd.htm

Otherwise (and certainly more interesting than the above - according to my personal ranking):

Refrath (von Limburger),
Bergisch-Land (originally Colt/Morrison)
Düsseldorf-Hubbelrath (36 holed by von Limburger- the Japanese Kosaido GC is just opposite the road)
would be nearby courses to visit -

you'll find more info on:

http://www.glckoeln.de/              
http://www.golfclub-bergischland.de/
http://www.gc-hubbelrath.de/
http://www.kosaido.de/de/index.php



Berlin, Germany (4 days)

Golf und Landclub Berlin Wannsee (Butchart 1914 first 18, Colt & Morrison 1929 additonal 9)
http://www.glcbw.de/index.htm

Sporting Club Berlin, maybe 30 miles outside - 63 holes - 18 hole Faldo and 18 hole Palmer courses are well worth a visit
http://www.sporting-club-berlin.de/

Golf- und Country Club Seddiner See - 36 holes (18 by Robert Trent Jones and 18 by German architect Rainer Preissmann)
http://www.gccseddinersee.de/index.php?id=golfanlage

Berliner Golfclub Stolper Heide
http://www.golfclub-stolperheide.de - 36 holes - the 18 hole Bernhard Langer West course (1997) and the 18 hole east course by German architect Kurt Rossknecht
Golfclub Semlin (quite a bid away from Berlin) designed by German architect Christoph Städler 1993
http://www.golfresort-semlin.de/
 


Munich, Germany (3 days)

Münchener Golf-Club Strasslach, designed by von Limburger, re-designed by Perry Dye a few years ago
http://www.golf.de/golfclub/mgc/home.cfm

Golf Club Beuerberg, (Harradine)
http://www.gc-beuerberg.de/

Golf-Club Feldafing (Bernhard von Limburger - original 9 1926 and additional 9 1962)
http://www.golfclub-feldafing.de/

Other courses of interest might be:

München-Riedhof
http://riedhof2.intellistruct.com/

Land- und Golfclub St. Eurach
http://www.eurach.de/


Stuttgart, Germany (3 days)

Stuttgarter Golf-Club Solitude (originally von Limburger, recently re-designed by T.Himmel)

US Army Stuttgart Golf Course at Kornwestheim (also von Limburger)

http://mwrfirstchoice.com/pages/golf-course.php


Please do not hesitate to contact me by e-mail or PM in case you have any further questions.

Greetings from Germany

Christoph
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 04:25:10 PM by Christoph Meister »
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2010, 03:55:23 PM »
Brian Ross -

You should spend some time checking out Frank Pont's website (http://golfarchitecturepictures.com/).

It features extensive photo tours of a good number of course on the Continent in France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc. and is a great resource.

DT 

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2010, 04:11:33 PM »
Brian,

for Switzerland (Basel and Zurich region resp.) I would recommend the following courses:

in Basel I would recommend

Golf & Country Club Basel (Benrhard von Limburger, 1968 - the course is outside Basel but in French territory..)
http://www.gccbasel.ch/

in Zurich I would recommend:

Golf & Country Club Zumikon (Ton Williamson (Nottingham) 1930, T.Simpson re-design 1935, Harradine 1978s)
more info through:
http://www.swissgolfnetwork.ch/php/main.php

Golf & Country Club Hittnau-Zürich (Bernhard von Limburger, 1964)
http://www.gcch.ch/

Golf & Country Club Schönenberg (Donald Harradine, 1968)
http://www.swissgolfnetwork.ch/php/main.php

Hope you find this information helpful...

Christoph

Please find below two pictures from Zurich-Zumikon 1931 and 1935 (courtesy of Deutsches Golf Archiv, Cologne)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 04:28:07 PM by Christoph Meister »
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Brian Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2010, 04:18:02 PM »
Everyone,

Thank you very much for the feedback.  I will do a little more research on the courses you all have mentioned and hopefully I can get something set up to visit a few of them while I'm over there.  Hopefully I can make it to Sunningdale, Morfontaine, Kennemer and De Pan, as well as a couple in Germany!

Scott,

We will be traveling between cities as a group, and it is all direct by train, so unfortunately I would be unable to visit anywhere in between the cities I originally listed.

Mark,

Thanks for the feedback.  I would love to get out to the coast at Deal, but unfortunately, I am afraid I won't have enough time in the UK to make it out there before we have to get the train to Paris.  I hope to make a more expansive trip around the island at some point in the future. 

Tom,

Thanks!  I definitely hope to see Kennemer, and I believe I will be in Amsterdam long enough to make a day trip out to Utrecht. 

Emil and Christoph,

Thanks for the feedback on Germany (and for Switzerland Christoph)!  I will have to do some more research on the courses you listed and hopefully can visit a couple while I am there.  If I have any additional questions, I will definitely email you for more info!

David,

Thanks for that website!  I will spend some time checking it out!

Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2010, 04:43:36 PM »
Brian I see your comments to Mark above but

On May the 15th I leave London by car at 8 and can drop you at RSG 9.20.  Walk that and then the back 9 at Deal and you'll have time for a quick drink in the clubhouse and back in the smoke for 4.

IM me if interested.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe New
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2010, 05:06:36 PM »
When near Amsterdam, do also visit Haagsche, less well known than Kennemer, because it has not hosted the Dutch Open recently, but probably even better, and at least on a par with the Kennemer links. My preference as a local would be:

1. Haagsche -Alison- (35-40 minutes by -rental- car from A'dam)

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41086.0/

2. De Pan-Colt- (30-35 minutes) -combine with Hilversum if you like (25 mins from A'dam, 15 mins. from De Pan)

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40781.msg860517/topicseen/

3. Kennemer-Colt- (30-35 minutes)

Rental Car is a good option as train stations tend to be not near the golf courses, and you end up more expensive including taxi fares which are high in the Netherlands. Also with a rental car it is feasible to visit two courses in one day, which would be hard to do by train/taxi.

From the other cities I know Paris golf fairly well and would certainly include a visit to Fontainebleau and Paris St Germain (for quality design and green sites on a flat piece of land) apart from Morfontaine of course. Others of fame nearby I have seen are Chantilly and National, but I would certainly prefer the former 3 over them. PSG is nearest to the city centre, Morfontaine (north) and Fontainebleau (south) are well outside the city centre.

have fun!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 08:56:13 PM by Cristian Willaert »

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2010, 05:07:59 PM »
Brian,

you may want to not only see the classic courses, but also a few modern ones. As I understand you, this is not about seeing the absolute best courses available, but more of a broader study program. So you might want to mix in some "Tour like" venues, even if they may be too hard and/or one-dimensional for the average player.

In that vein I would recommend GC Valley near Munich and the Faldo course in Berlin.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Jason McNamara

Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2010, 06:53:34 PM »
I suspect it would be a long day, but you could likely get to Hardelot and Le Touquet from Lille.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2010, 09:21:59 PM »
Fontainebleau is a must if you are in Paris.It is not quite as good as Morfontaine - but it's close.
They are both Simpson - and feel remarkably similar but one - Morfontaine - is north-west and one is south east of the city.

Brian Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2010, 02:04:54 PM »
Everyone,

Thanks again for the replies! 

Tony,

I certainly appreciate the offer, however, I fly out of D.C. on May 15, so I won't actually be arriving at Heathrow until the morning of the 16th, so looks like I will miss you.  I will probably try and see Sunningdale that day since I will be on that side of town, but I may still try and make it out to Deal on the 17th. 

Ulrich,

Thanks for the advice on the newer courses.  I am definitely more interested in studying some of the older designs/designers, but I feel like it would be a waste if I didn't try to see some of the more recent additions to the European golf scene as well.  I will put GC Valley and the Faldo course in Berlin on my list of possibilities. 

Jason, 

Unfortunately, we will only be in Lille for about a day and 1/2, so it will probably be unlikely that I can venture that far outside the city.  Thanks for the advice though!

Cristian and Mike, 

I will add Fontainebleau to my list as well.  It will probably be tough to get to both it and Morfontaine but I will try and squeeze it in if I can!  PSG is another option there too, thanks!
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Jobst von Steinsdorff

Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2010, 01:16:42 PM »
Being from Munich, I thought some more information on what to do while you're there may be a nice first posting to this forum. As I gather you are mostly interested in older courses, trouble is there are very few. Most of what is around has been built in the 1980s and later. I also do not know which kind of transport you will have available as not many courses are reasonably accessible by public transport. That being said, let's start with a list:

Pre-1980s:
- The oldest course in Munich set up in or around 1910 is lost - the Club still exists and is located at the Strasslach (as well as Thalkirchen) Course.
- Feldafing (already mentioned) is the oldest one that is still around. I would definitely suggest you see that (BTW one of the few quite accessible by train and maybe a 10 minute walk). While I may be biased by my personal relationship with that area, it is one of the most scenic courses I know (with Lake Starnberg as backdrop and some holes offering very nice views on that) and also very well laid out. Besides you will notice a significant difference between both nines. What is now the back nine is the old part dating from 1926. While some things certainly have been changed when the new front nine were added, you still see a significant difference in style. Part of it obviously also due to limitations in earthmoving in the 1920s but it may make a very intersting study object as you have two pieces of work from the same architect - one from his beginnings and one from his very mature to late phase.
- Garmisch-Partenkirchen (http://www.golfclub-garmisch-partenkirchen.de/?Start) does not really qualify as Munich area I'm afraid as it is a 100km drive. However it dates from 1928 and is also a very nice layout with magnificent views of the Alps. Still I think it's not worth the drive given your tight schedule.
- Thalkirchen (you can access some information on it on the cited site of Strasslach) dates from the early 1950s and is quite different than about anything else. The course is really close to the city center and easily accesible by subway, so you may go there when you have a short slot left in your schedule. It has been built only a few years after WWII when members of the Munich Golf Club needed a new course. It's just 9 very short but extremly narrow holes perched into a small aisle between a hillside and a river with many huge trees (and all the resulting problems). Anyone into safety will be shocked as in most cases there are just a few meters and trees between fairway borders and adjacents roads and public walkways. The routing is not spectacular, has some nice tweaks if you're into things unusual (on number 5 you will probably use a mid iron for the drive and a wood or long iron for the second). In total it may serve as a nice example of what can be done with limited space, limited ressources and an urgent desire to build a golf course. And what can be achieved when you're subject to strict environmental regulation (sensitive area), have huge shading issues with your large trees and narrow fairways and also have about the worst drainage imaginable. While maintenance
- Strasslach (already mentioned) owes its existence to the limitations of Thalkirchen. Practically as soon as Thalkrichen was ready for play the discussions about an 18 hole course started and Strasslach is the answer after a good ten years in the mid 1960s. Note that by now it has 27 holes, only the original A+B are from Limburger, the C loop was added in the 1990s. Beautifully maintained, A and B loops are great, I like the C loop's design as well, however it lacks the beauty of the A+B course and has implemented a completely senseless double green.

1980s ff.: There are plenty of courses from that period around and so I will comment only those mentioned and add a little bit
- Beuerberg: Very nice course, but not a must either. Unfortunately the club's atmosphere is very nouveau-riche - fancy-pants-style, but if you want to spend a 4-digit sum for a bottle of exquisite Bordeaux in the club house this is the place to be.
- Riedhof: Nice but before I went there I would have a look at other places.
- St. Eurach: see above.
- Eichenried: While it as a European Tour venue (Eurach was a few years while Eichenried was redesigned) and has a good layout, however it is a dead flat piece of land, where you have starting and landing planes and high volatge transmission lines running all across the place in lieu of beautiful surroundings. It owes its role as a Tour venue mainly to the extreme proximity to the airport and the fact that it can handle a lot of spectators much better than most other places.
- Gut Häusern http://www.golf-eschenried.de/54--~PlatzGutHaeusern~de~golfplatz~platzdaten.html: When talking about Tour Venues I would rather recommend this one which is a quite recent opening (2004, Peter Harradine) and hosts the UniCredit Ladies German Open on the Ladies European Tour. It think it's a very good and spacious modern design, once the trees have grown a little more it will become much more beautiful. However it has no views of lakes or mountains etc. and it is also pretty much in the back of beyond.
- Valley: About the most recent opening (2008, David Krause), I think an excellent design and an example for what you can do when you have much money to throw at this kind of project. This has been a comletely flat piece of land (during the Cold War used by Radio Free Europe for broadcasts to the East). This has been developed by a complete golf nut biotech millionaire, the landscaping there is completely artificial and has been built with only one goal: Being one of the best courses around and hosting some professional tournament. It's a stadium type of design (I think he even put in fixed cables for TV) and should by now have grown in (I played it only once right after it opened and in some places the rough had not been sewn in yet and some of the ponds needed much further work).

Well, there is a lot more, but I think to much to squeeze it into 3 days - especially whne you're interested in older courses. Even though you want to focus on golf, as a landscape architect you may want to see the English Garden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Englischer_Garten, one of the largest urban parks in the world - larger than NYC's Central Park. And if there needs to be a connection to Golf: The lost course from 1910 was situated in the northern part of the park (however there are no recognizable remains).

If you need any more specific info on the area, let me know. If my time allows I may be able to show you around a bit, especially in Thalkirchen (where I play frequently).

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2010, 02:24:56 PM »
Is Fontainebleau accessible by train from Paris?  If so, how long is the train ride?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2010, 02:54:23 PM »
No Fontainebleau is not easily accessible by train from Paris, it is situated quite far away from the city.

On the other hand, St. Germain is an easy 30 minute train ride (on the RER line A) from the Arch de Triomphe, and then from the train station in St. Germain-en-Laye, a five minute taxi ride to the club. It is superb, practically unaltered Colt, and the most under rated course in France. Also, it is more accessible than Morfontaine or Fontainebleau. 
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2010, 05:02:31 PM »
Being from Munich, I thought some more information on what to do while you're there may be a nice first posting to this forum. As I gather you are mostly interested in older courses, trouble is there are very few. Most of what is around has been built in the 1980s and later. I also do not know which kind of transport you will have available as not many courses are reasonably accessible by public transport. That being said, let's start with a list:

Pre-1980s:
- The oldest course in Munich set up in or around 1910 is lost - the Club still exists and is located at the Strasslach (as well as Thalkirchen) Course.
- Feldafing (already mentioned) is the oldest one that is still around. I would definitely suggest you see that (BTW one of the few quite accessible by train and maybe a 10 minute walk). While I may be biased by my personal relationship with that area, it is one of the most scenic courses I know (with Lake Starnberg as backdrop and some holes offering very nice views on that) and also very well laid out. Besides you will notice a significant difference between both nines. What is now the back nine is the old part dating from 1926. While some things certainly have been changed when the new front nine were added, you still see a significant difference in style. Part of it obviously also due to limitations in earthmoving in the 1920s but it may make a very intersting study object as you have two pieces of work from the same architect - one from his beginnings and one from his very mature to late phase.
- Garmisch-Partenkirchen (http://www.golfclub-garmisch-partenkirchen.de/?Start) does not really qualify as Munich area I'm afraid as it is a 100km drive. However it dates from 1928 and is also a very nice layout with magnificent views of the Alps. Still I think it's not worth the drive given your tight schedule.
- Thalkirchen (you can access some information on it on the cited site of Strasslach) dates from the early 1950s and is quite different than about anything else. The course is really close to the city center and easily accesible by subway, so you may go there when you have a short slot left in your schedule. It has been built only a few years after WWII when members of the Munich Golf Club needed a new course. It's just 9 very short but extremly narrow holes perched into a small aisle between a hillside and a river with many huge trees (and all the resulting problems). Anyone into safety will be shocked as in most cases there are just a few meters and trees between fairway borders and adjacents roads and public walkways. The routing is not spectacular, has some nice tweaks if you're into things unusual (on number 5 you will probably use a mid iron for the drive and a wood or long iron for the second). In total it may serve as a nice example of what can be done with limited space, limited ressources and an urgent desire to build a golf course. And what can be achieved when you're subject to strict environmental regulation (sensitive area), have huge shading issues with your large trees and narrow fairways and also have about the worst drainage imaginable. While maintenance
- Strasslach (already mentioned) owes its existence to the limitations of Thalkirchen. Practically as soon as Thalkrichen was ready for play the discussions about an 18 hole course started and Strasslach is the answer after a good ten years in the mid 1960s. Note that by now it has 27 holes, only the original A+B are from Limburger, the C loop was added in the 1990s. Beautifully maintained, A and B loops are great, I like the C loop's design as well, however it lacks the beauty of the A+B course and has implemented a completely senseless double green.

1980s ff.: There are plenty of courses from that period around and so I will comment only those mentioned and add a little bit
- Beuerberg: Very nice course, but not a must either. Unfortunately the club's atmosphere is very nouveau-riche - fancy-pants-style, but if you want to spend a 4-digit sum for a bottle of exquisite Bordeaux in the club house this is the place to be.
- Riedhof: Nice but before I went there I would have a look at other places.
- St. Eurach: see above.
- Eichenried: While it as a European Tour venue (Eurach was a few years while Eichenried was redesigned) and has a good layout, however it is a dead flat piece of land, where you have starting and landing planes and high volatge transmission lines running all across the place in lieu of beautiful surroundings. It owes its role as a Tour venue mainly to the extreme proximity to the airport and the fact that it can handle a lot of spectators much better than most other places.
- Gut Häusern http://www.golf-eschenried.de/54--~PlatzGutHaeusern~de~golfplatz~platzdaten.html: When talking about Tour Venues I would rather recommend this one which is a quite recent opening (2004, Peter Harradine) and hosts the UniCredit Ladies German Open on the Ladies European Tour. It think it's a very good and spacious modern design, once the trees have grown a little more it will become much more beautiful. However it has no views of lakes or mountains etc. and it is also pretty much in the back of beyond.
- Valley: About the most recent opening (2008, David Krause), I think an excellent design and an example for what you can do when you have much money to throw at this kind of project. This has been a comletely flat piece of land (during the Cold War used by Radio Free Europe for broadcasts to the East). This has been developed by a complete golf nut biotech millionaire, the landscaping there is completely artificial and has been built with only one goal: Being one of the best courses around and hosting some professional tournament. It's a stadium type of design (I think he even put in fixed cables for TV) and should by now have grown in (I played it only once right after it opened and in some places the rough had not been sewn in yet and some of the ponds needed much further work).

Well, there is a lot more, but I think to much to squeeze it into 3 days - especially whne you're interested in older courses. Even though you want to focus on golf, as a landscape architect you may want to see the English Garden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Englischer_Garten, one of the largest urban parks in the world - larger than NYC's Central Park. And if there needs to be a connection to Golf: The lost course from 1910 was situated in the northern part of the park (however there are no recognizable remains).

If you need any more specific info on the area, let me know. If my time allows I may be able to show you around a bit, especially in Thalkirchen (where I play frequently).

Welcome Jobst. Where else in Europe have you played?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jobst von Steinsdorff

Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2010, 05:35:32 PM »
Thank you Tony, what I've played so far, is - besides different courses in Germany (including Falkenstein, which I cannont endorse enough) - a few in Italy (none of the more famous ones however), and some in the Biarritz region in France (including Biarritz Le Phare, the second oldest on the continent; Chiberta still missing unfortunately) and a couple in southwestern Spain and Portugal.

Scotland is now on top of the list of places to go in the near future. Especially since my job (not golf related at all) brought me in contact with a great-grandson of James Braid's last year), who told me he may be able to arrange starting times at places where that's a little more difficult, like Muirfield ;).

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2010, 06:04:13 PM »
Jobst, so you've been to heaven on earth!   ;)

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22527.0/  
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 01:48:50 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Matthew Schulte

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Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2010, 07:33:58 PM »
Budersand in Germany looks terrific in pictures.  Based on the fact that it hasn't been mentioned, should I assume it photographs better than it plays?

Christoph Meister

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Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2010, 06:10:54 AM »
Budersand in Germany looks terrific in pictures.  Based on the fact that it hasn't been mentioned, should I assume it photographs better than it plays?

Matthew,

Budersand not only looks terrific, it is a very nice golf course..it was just ranked 3rd after Falkenstein and Bad Saarow-Faldo Course by the German "golf magazine" - the course is 150km north west of Hamburg on the Island of Sylt (at least 3,5 hours by train), far away from Berlin or any other town Brian will be visiting and so I suppose it wasn't mentionned by anyone here....

Christoph

for further pictures and information on Budersand: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39465.0/

« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 06:15:16 AM by Christoph Meister »
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Golf Courses to see in Europe
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2010, 06:28:41 AM »
Matthew - Budersand is superb, and it is a really fantastic achievement to build such a pure links course on a site that was previously covered in concrete and tarmac. I think anyone who has the chance should go see it. Considering it was Stephan Hansen's first course, it's even more impressive.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.