white manor philadelphia bobby weed renovation

[archie_struthers]

 


Played White Manor in a Philly team match yesterday and really enjoyed it again.  Weed did a nice job and I'm sorry that I never saw the original to give some perspective on just how good a job he did.  Lots of strong par fours and threes and really enjoy the combination of distance and accuracy needed on some of the approach shots .  

Hope to hear from you all on the course and Bobby Weed .  The renovation is circa 2003 I do believe

[Joe Bausch]

Archie, last November I had the pleasure of playing White Manor, a course from the 60's by the Gordons that was completely renovated a handful of years ago by Bobby Weed as you stated.  The routing was retained, but that is about it.  All new tees, bunkers, greens, etc.

Perhaps people would like a little photo tour w/ some of my commentary.  I'll present the front nine today, then later the back nine.

Here is the routing on a rolling property with nice elevation changes, plenty of trees (!), a couple of ponds and streams:



#1.  Right out of the gate at WM you get a downhill par 4 with a very difficult green fronted by a small stream.  If you are looking for a gimme hole to start out, well, you are not getting it here!











#2.  From that tough opener you go to the No 1 handicap hole, a 431 yard par 4.











#3.  From the regular tees, this is a longish par 3 (214), and from the tips pretty beastie (255 yards).









#4.  Now you get an uphill par 4 (415 yards) with cross bunkers making you take a side on the drive, with the right side wider but requiring a 2nd shot over green side bunkers.











#5.  A nicely rolling dogleg left par 4 (424 yards).













#6.  A par 5 (555 yards) that I just was fascinating by on my only time on the course; it is fairly flat most of the way, then goes downhill to a green that runs away; a ground shot can be utilized here nicely.















#7.  A nice little shortie par 4 (335 yards); that is the 17th green over the pond.











#8.  Par 3 (165 yards).









#9. An uphill par 4 (436 yards) with a very challenging two-tiered green:











If you liked the front nine, well, you will likely really like the back.  Stay tuned.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here is the original thread after White Manor won the Renovation of the Year from Golf, Inc:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16298.msg283501/topicseen/

[Bob Harris]

Played White Manor in a Philly team match yesterday and really enjoyed it again.  Weed did a nice job and I'm sorry that I never saw the original to give some perspective on just how good a job he did.  Lots of strong par fours and threes and really enjoy the combination of distance and accuracy needed on some of the approach shots .  

Hope to hear from you all on the course and Bobby Weed .  The renovation is circa 2003 I do believe

Using the historical feature on Google Earth, you can see how Weed changed a ho-hum first hole and a bad par 5 second hole into two excellent holes.

[mike_malone]

 What I like most is that now the course has a distinctiveness to fit into the portfolio of fine Philly courses. Before it was just a copy of most other courses that was overevergreened. I have only a small quibble. I think the sharply uphill holes need more slopes versus plateaus in the greens.

[Kenny Baer]

Had the good fortune to play White Manor a couple of years ago on a golf trip to Philly, played Saucon Valley (Weyhill), Lehigh, Glen Mills, Stonewall, and Philmont.  I thought it compared favorly to Saucon, Stonewall, and Lehigh and was better than Philmont and Glen Mills.  That is saying alot since I literally played the worst round of golf of my adult life, I wanted to throw my clubs in the lake afterwards but still appreciated the layout.  The greens were very severe, the only thing I could see as a weakness was the uphill 9th and 18th.

[Brian Laurent]

I was impressed with the first photo tour that was displayed on this website and love seeing it again!  Why is it that this golf course does not receive more praise?  If it were in an area with less "great" golf courses, would we hear about it more often?

[Joe Bausch]

If it were in an area with less "great" golf courses, would we hear about it more often?

Yes.

[Dan Boerger]

Really a terrific course. Don't pass it up if you get the chance to play it.

[archie_struthers]

 

During the round we happened to talk a little about the inability to hold t   he fescue around some bunker edges...high traffic areas

I suggested they just not try to hold it around the green side bunkers while leaving it on the fairways and less trafficked areas..don't know if they agreed or not but it seemed real sensible for a lot of reasons.

Also thought the two holes with the rocks were too contrived    8 and 17   

remember that overall the course was quite good 

[Joe Bausch]

Now the back nine.

Here is the back nine at White Manor.

#10.  I'm not sure which downhill par 4 is harder, this one or No 1.









#11. Next up is a par 5 reachable in two with a good tee ball.











#12.  Next up is a 192 yard par 3.









#13. Now the No 2 handicap hole, a very tough dogleg right par 4 with H2O in play off the drive and a beautifully contoured green:











#14. A 217 yard par 3.







#15.  A slightly uphill short par 4 (330 yards).











#16. A much longer par 4 (446 yards).











#17. A downhill par 5 off the tee, then it moves left at the end with water in play.











#18. WM finishes with a climbing all the way par 4 (418 yards).









I hope you enjoyed the tour.  I enjoyed my day at White Manor and will delight if I get another opportunity to play there.  I really liked the greens and the variety of shots you could play from just off them.

[D_Malley]

Played white manor as my home course for high school golf team in th mid 80's, and have played it several times since the renovation.  WM also hosted the McDonalds LPGA event in the mid 80's.  I believe the LPGA left WM because it was considered to difficult at the time.

I really like the changes made by Bobby Weed, especially Holes 1 & 2, the golf course is much better overall.
I thinkthe greens on holes 9 & 18 were better before the renovation with very challenging back to front sloping greens.  Today they are a little bit over the top.

[TEPaul]

Bobby Weed did some good stuff with White Manor----some significant changes on some holes and none to not much on others. The primary hole changes I think were making #2 straight and dropping it from a par 5 to a par 4, #4 where he basically redirected the hole by moving its line left and straight thereby opening it up real wide and getting rid of a pretty cumbersomely severe right to left dogleg that really didn't work well with its left to right topography. #13 on the second half was a big change too. If I'm not mistaken I think he left all the contours of the old green right in the approach to the new one which is interesting.

He may've flip-flopped the 9th and 18th and done a pretty wild green on one of them (I think the 18th). Those two holes were far too similar to one another originally which was hard to get away from as they are side by side from about the same distances running straight up the same hill.

The bunker surrounds are very interesting and a pretty unique look for around here.

That course has a couple of par 3s that are pretty long and brassy in the model of some of the ultra long par 3s from the Golden Age of the original Philadelphia School of architects like Thomas and Flynn.

If you're into architecture it's not hard to see the architetural DNA in William Gordon, the course's original architect who was Flynn's primary foreman through most of Flynn's career.

[Tim Nugent]

Looks like Bobby did a real nice job here.  For those who have been there, if given the scope to be able to do all new greens, tees, bunkers, could the back nine have been reversed (new greens on old tees and vice-versa)? The parallel holes are the only thing that is bothersome to me.  But I'd still like to play it.

[Jason Mandel]

Archie-

Glad you enjoyed your day out there.

Joe-

Thanks for providing the great photo tour, you really do an incredible job capturing the courses in which you photo.  The pictures you sent me last fall was withouth a doubt the most comprehensive photo catalog of the course since its been reopened.   Most will be happy to hear that  a bunch of pine trees have come down over the winter, with the overall goal of getting rid of most of them over the next 10 years or so.  We took down at least 1000 when we re-did the course, but due to the cost had to stop somewhere! 

Dave,

I see some people's complaints about 9, and more often 13, but few have really had a gripe about the 18th green, which I think is one of the more fun greens on the course.

Tim,
Regarding the parellel holes: while 15, 16 and 6 are all relatively straight holes that run parallel to each other (6 and 16 in different directions than 15), they could not play more differently than each other.  The same can be said about 1 and 10, two very different holes with different greens.  9 and 18 used to be very similar holes, and while they are both uphill holes on the same ground to finish each side, Bobby made significant changes to differentiate each other. 

It’s a fun course that really makes the golfer “think” their way around the course, as opposed to the old course, which had gotten to a point where the main strategy was to keep it out of the trees!

If anyone finds themselves in the Philadelphia area I’d be happy to have them out.
Jason

[Mike_Trenham]

What stands out to me from my many rounds at White Manor is the character of the greens which are all unique yet certainly from the same set.

Secondly is how well you are enticed to hit it close to the side of the fairway with the most trouble yet there is plenty of room to the other side with minimal added distance or difficulty.  Good examples of this is the room to the left on #1 and how you are just as well off to play it down the middle, the ample room on the left on #10 yet everyone favors the right side and on #13 and you need not fool with the pond, yet your/my mind does not let you/me do this easily.

This was not a renovation it was a gut job and a very good final product.  One of the best Modern courses in the area where the classics get most of the attention.  In fact just as so many people say its hard to pick the best Flynn in Philadelphia it is hard to pick the best modern course in Philadelphia and there are easily 6-10 near equal candidates.

[Sean_A]

Thanks for the tour Joe!

Yes, I do like the look of the greens.  There seems to be a good combo of slopes and contours with a lot of run-off areas.  The fairways have a lovely diversity of shapes and angles.  I presume the ponds are essential for drainage, but perhaps there is a bit too much water in direct play for my taste.  I still think more trees need to come out, but many may be masking the cart paths. Still, the huge evergreens presumably protecting golfers are a serious eye sore.  

How do the bunkers play?  

Ciao  

[Dan Boerger]

The last time I played there, the bunkers were consistent and firm.

One of the reasons the native pine trees may seem to stand out in Joe's pictures is because the leaves are off the other trees. I don't have a problem with the number or placement of the pines at White Manor and -- like water, high grass or waste area -- I think trees can be a terrific hazard. A great example of this (IMO of course) are the trees lining the fairway at Merion East #4. They really get in your head off the tee.

[archie_struthers]

 

ps  Jason et al just love the 16th hole    .....    and the 18th green is gnarly but interesting   you know you can't shortside yourself

[Rory Connaughton]

I had the opportunity to play White Manor yesterday with Joe Bausch, Tim Martin and our gracious host Eric Settle.  As the pictures above make obvious, the course is on a wonderful piece of ground and the routing makes great use of the elevation changes, the bunkering and greens are artfully presented and the condition of the course, especially given that SE Pa has had a horrible April, was outstanding.  There is great variety among the par 4's, from drivable to long 4.5 par holes.  On each tee the golfer is presented with a myriad of options. Once selected and executed properly, a new series of questions is posed.  The course seems to accommodate a near limitless styles of play. The aerial game works, the ground game is readily available on most holes.  I hope that I am not making it sound easy because it is not. There is not an indifferent hole or indifferent shot on the course.

Other than the fact that it is surrounded by such heady company, its hard to understand why White Manor does not get more recognition. It certainly belongs in the discussion of courses that fall just outside the big 2 in the region.

[Carl Rogers]

Did Weed change holes 4 & 15?

On Hole 4, why would anyone ever drive it right?

[Wade Whitehead]

I remember Jason talking about White Manor when he came to Roanoke last fall.  I looked it up then but really like the photos Joe posted.  Thanks very much.

I like Glen Mills and The Olde Farm very much.  At both courses I've noticed that Bobby Weed supplies a good, solid aiming point on nearly every tee.  Similarly, White Manor appears to give the player a definite target on each hole.  Am I right?

WW

[Tim Martin]

I remember Jason talking about White Manor when he came to Roanoke last fall.  I looked it up then but really like the photos Joe posted.  Thanks very much.

I like Glen Mills and The Olde Farm very much.  At both courses I've noticed that Bobby Weed supplies a good, solid aiming point on nearly every tee.  Similarly, White Manor appears to give the player a definite target on each hole.  Am I right?

WW

WW- On the first play the landing areas look a bit more squeezed from the tee than they really are on a few holes. There is plenty of width and some very well done center line bunkers on a number of holes. The greens have some neat runoff and collection areas and and as Rory stated give you options. There is no letdown in the routing and White Manor is super fun. Tipped out at over 7000 yards this is quite a test.

[Rory Connaughton]

WW

I would not say that there are well defined aiming points necessarily because there are so many options but I would agree that most holes present a definite line of charm.

[Wade Whitehead]

Tim & Rory:

Thanks for the info.  The courses certainly present various options.  I've just noticed that Mr. Weed tends to place bunkers or leave trees or suggest mowing patterns that really help with alignment from the tee.  There appear to be fewer - or no - blind or nondescript tee shots.

WW