[JESII]

Many people are putting this shot in the ranks of greatest all time...pretty tough to argue against that in my opinion. Making the putt woul dhave locked up the tournament, and with it the unanimous vote as a greatest shot of all time contender.

In my opinion, the primary reason it is getting that sort of tak is because the hole is a par 5. Would any of us who were amazed he was even trying it have been any less amazed if it were a par 4 and he had decided to lay up?

For all the philosophysizing about "PAR" being a manufactured number, it does drive the conciousness of golfers anywhere near it...and therefore drives the architecture.

[Anthony Gray]

   Better shot if he makes the putt.

  Anthony

[JESII]

Lesser shot if it's a par 4?

[Sean Leary]

Many people are putting this shot in the ranks of greatest all time...pretty tough to argue against that in my opinion. Making the putt woul dhave locked up the tournament, and with it the unanimous vote as a greatest shot of all time contender.

In my opinion, the primary reason it is getting that sort of tak is because the hole is a par 5. Would any of us who were amazed he was even trying it have been any less amazed if it were a par 4 and he had decided to lay up?

For all the philosophysizing about "PAR" being a manufactured number, it does drive the conciousness of golfers anywhere near it...and therefore drives the architecture.

Agreed 100%. Par matters.

[Mark Chaplin]

He hit a poor tee shot and got lucky, should never have neen there.

Missing the putt takes away the benefit of the shot.

[Shane Wright]

Jim, I agree as well.

It seemed crazy at first, but he knew a bogey was the worst he could do.  Eagle wins the Masters and bogey definitely didn't lose it for him.  

[JESII]

Mark,

I think a shot can stand on its own in terms of comparing the best ever...the context of the situation being the key...certainly completing the deal matters but is not everything in my opinion. That's also why his second shot on #18 at Winged Foot is one of the worst ever...but it alone didn't end his chances.

[Will MacEwen]

Didn't Pavin miss the putt on his iconic 4 wood at Shinnecock?

[Simon Holt]

Amazing shot but he pulled it.  No way he was firing straight at it!  He had to be aiming for the left side of the green thinking 2 putt.

[George Pazin]

I don't see where he was thinking about par at all. I see where he was thinking he needed a 3 or 4 to beat his competitors. You could call it a par 12 and he still would've gone for it.

Where it ranks? Don't know. He hit so many great shots it's hard to say. Pretty damn high, though.

[JESII]

George,

If he had gotten the 3-iron at Winged Foot on the green, would it receive the same immediate acclaim?

Maybe it would have, but I think not.


Simon,

I agree on the pull - 20 or 30 feet is my guess, but that part actually doesn't matter.

[Scott Warren]

Jim, I agree as well.

It seemed crazy at first, but he knew a bogey was the worst he could do.  Eagle wins the Masters and bogey definitely didn't lose it for him.  

I agree, and if he rinses it, he can pitch to a gathering pin and with his short game, making 5 in that situation is almost a lock.

That said, it took enormous balls to play that shot and I woke my fiancee up cheering as it found safe ground on the green.

[BCrosby]

Jim -

I have argued for years on GCA that par matters. It sets scoring expectations - for some obvious and some not so obvious reasons. Par affects your willingness to take risks.

As Paul Henreid said to Bogey at the end of Casablanca "Welcome to the fight. This time I know we will win."

Bob

 

[Jason Elwell]

I was fortunate enough to sit on 13 on Sunday in 2007, and probably the most impressive thing to me was the number of guys who went for the green, hit it in the creek, then went to the drop zone and got up and down. I'm not trying to take anything away from Phil, but it's not as risky a shot to him as you might think. He's probably thinking the absolute worst he makes if he hits it in the creek is a 6 and a 5 is probable. Of course all the guys I saw were several shots back, and not in the pine straw. So while the down side to the risk is not that far down, it still takes some guts to pull it off.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I don't think he pulled the shot at all, the landing was too soft and the ball rolled straight away from its pitch mark.

For me, that shot ranks in the top tier of shots ever seen at the Masters and it will probably reach historic levels, ala Sarazen's 4wood.

The par of the hole makes little difference, at least to my way of thinking.  

[Sean_A]

Greatest shot ever?  No chance,  Great shot, sure.  I didn't even realize Phil was going for it until I saw the lashing swing.  Still, it didn't surprise me even if I think it was an unnecessary risk that could have bit him in the ass.  At the time he didn't need birdie enough to risk bogey or perhaps double bogey - he was in the driver's seat.  

I still don't think par matters, but if it does, it should only matter for the players who can shoot par on a regular basis.  Otherwise, par is a completely false expectation.  In many ways, even for the big guns par is a false expectation because they so often go below that score.  Its as if SSS for the big guns should be more like 70 or 69 for a normal length par 72 tour course.  That said, the real issue I have with "par" (afterall, I could care less if folks want to use this number for the benchmark in some way) is the idea that the holes need to accommodate the par number in some way.  For instance, building larger greens for long par 4s or smaller greens for short par 5s - etc. 

Ciao

[JESII]

Sean,

I agree on the last part...I think a better use of "PAR" is for the architect to use it as a tool, knowing it will impact our thought. Riskier holes on the short side of the yardage question...playing against our expectation...

Also agree, in general, that par should primarily matter to those in range of it...but I think it's on a hole-by-hole basis as opposed to over 18 holes.

Think about the 18 handicapper already having hit the ball 100 times and is now facing a pitch into #17 at St. Andrews with the pin in the back...conservatively to the middle of the green to assure no worse than a 5 likely, or a more aggressive one, challenging the Road Bunker in hopes of making a 4 at the risk of a 7...doesn't the presence of par (and the opportunity to tell the story) help the architecture if the player has some reason to take a chance?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I agree on the last part...I think a better use of "PAR" is for the architect to use it as a tool, knowing it will impact our thought. Riskier holes on the short side of the yardage question...playing against our expectation...

Also agree, in general, that par should primarily matter to those in range of it...but I think it's on a hole-by-hole basis as opposed to over 18 holes.

Think about the 18 handicapper already having hit the ball 100 times and is now facing a pitch into #17 at St. Andrews with the pin in the back...conservatively to the middle of the green to assure no worse than a 5 likely, or a more aggressive one, challenging the Road Bunker in hopes of making a 4 at the risk of a 7...doesn't the presence of par (and the opportunity to tell the story) help the architecture if the player has some reason to take a chance?

Jim

The risk/reward element of a shot is present regardless of the par of a hole - indeed, often for the top guys, in spite of the par for the hole.  At heart, the concept of par other than as a means to keep score on board, is to me bad for the game and bad for architecture.  Its right up there with carts and how they have effected the game.  They sure have their place, just as par does, but it seems folks just can't control themselves.   

Ciao   

[JESII]

"I made a four" doesn't carry the pride of "I made a par" in my opinion...

[Sean_A]

"I made a four" doesn't carry the pride of "I made a par" in my opinion...

Jim

Pride???  That ain't worth one thin dime; 1/10th of a dollar. 

That has everything to with your expectations (based on par or not) rather than the reality of the hole. 

Ciao

[JMEvensky]

"I made a four" doesn't carry the pride of "I made a par" in my opinion...

Agreed,but now you're getting close to defending those evil "card and pencil" guys (smiley omitted in deference to Bob Huntley).

[BCrosby]

"...but it seems folks just can't control themselves."

But Sean, that's the point. That's why par matters. At the margin, it affects playing decisions. Like it or not. Rational or otherwise. (Actually, I think it is rational, but that is a whole other discussion.)

Bob

[JESII]

And the great thing is, we each have our own expectations and the features on a golf course impact each of us uniquely...

[Terry Lavin]

It was a great shot, but it didn't win the tournament.  It didn't go in the hole.  And, not insignificantly, even though the resulting putt didn't go in the hole, he went on to win by three shots.  The reason why it is a great shot despite these other factors is that missing the shot could well have cost him the championship and making the shot ensured that he'd have minimal difficulty going forward.  If he puts it in the water, he's got that awkward short chip shot and he could easily have made bogey.  Nine times out of ten, Phil would make that little putt, so the difference between a potential eagle and a potential bogey is the whole enchilada.  He could have pulled a Seve at that point, but he makes the shot and his confidence remains sky high despite missing the short putt.  

[BCrosby]

And the great thing is, we each have our own expectations and the features on a golf course impact each of us uniquely...

Yes and no. Yes, when you and I are just playing. No, when you are competing against a field whose expectations are set by par, which then force you to adopt the same expectations to keep pace.

Bob

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