Tiger Rules Violation?

[Rick Sides]

On the 11th hole, Tiger got stuck back in the pine straw and moved away a large patch of the needles to put his left foot into the ground.  Isn't this building a stance and didn't Kevin NA get called for this before? Did anyone else catch this?

[David_Tepper]

Rick Sides -

I did not see the Kevin Na incident. As I understand it, unless you are in a hazard, you can move loose objects/impediments. Tiger was not in a hazard. I see no reason he could not remove pine straw, twigs, branches, etc.

DT 

[Rick Sides]

He took a large clump in his hand and threw it to the side, then placed his left foot in the spot.

[Kalen Braley]

Interesting question Rick,

Not ok to put a towel on the ground to kneal on, but OK to remove fist fulls of pine straw to "build" a better stance?

I sense another big inconistency in the rules..   

[Pete_Pittock]

Rick,
There is no penalty as long as the ball does not move as a result of your actions.  The ball was not in a hazard. Outside of a hazard you can remove loose impediments (ie. pine straw). You can move as much as your want by whatever means you have at your disposal.

If you look at Rule 13-3 and its decisions you can read that you are allowed to firmly take your stance, but not alter the ground (except to dig into sand).

[Chris Cupit]

Pinestraw is a loose impedement.  You can remove it any way you wish as long as you don't move your ball.  

(If your ball lies on the green and removal of a loose impedement causes the ball to move, as long as the movement was directly attributable to the removal of the loose impedement, there is no penalty in that case)!

[Chris Cupit]

Interesting question Rick,

Not ok to put a towel on the ground to kneal on, but OK to remove fist fulls of pine straw to "build" a better stance?

I sense another big inconistency in the rules..   

Kalen,

One way to think of it is this:

With the towel you are putting something between you and the ground.  It is picky but you have changed the surface.  With any loose impedement, its removal helps you get to the "actual ground" and that is OK as long as the ball doesn't move. 

[Marty Bonnar]

Pine Straw is a stupid affectation and deserves to be kicked aside at any and all possible opportunity. I hereby publicly salute Tiger for his 'stance' on the matter. (Sorry)

best,
FBD.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

He looked like a batter in the batter's box at home plate.  He definitely created a more secure footing.  I did not know that is legal.  I have just learned something, that pine straw can be slippery.
Now I know why it was not mentioned on the telecast.

[Pete_Pittock]

No different than twigs, loose branches or leaves where you want to stand.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do not see that as a rules violation either. How about tossing ball to crowd in middle of round without asking to take it out of play.

[TEPaul]

"I do not see that as a rules violation either. How about tossing ball to crowd in middle of round without asking to take it out of play."


Tiger:

What are you talking about? If you mean between holing out and the next tee that golf ball is not "In Play" in the context of the Rules of Golf.

[TEPaul]

Dale Jackson:

I looked in the section on this website that shows who's on-line and who's looking at which threads and I saw you were looking at this one.

Would you please explain to these Rules novices on here why Tiger Woods's grabbing a bunch of pine straw "throught the green" ("Loose Impediments") has nothing to do with "building" a stance?

By the way, a copy of the 2009 Walker Cup program and my article in it entitled "Hugh I. Wilson and the Age of the Amateur/Sportsman Architect" will be winging its way to you tomorrow.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Rick - I noticed Tiger kicking around pine needles to getting a better footing.

I also understand Tom et al on the rules, and that we are allowed to move loose impediments through the green...

BUT
he was clearly making a better stance for himself, I still think play it as it lies is the way to go, and removing wet leaves from under your stance, or cut grass or pine needles is not within the true spirit of the game. 

[Steve Lang]

  then follow your spirit of the game..

I'm sure since there's no pine straw at St Andrews others will agree.. 

let the rules fall where they may, to help or hurt, depending on knowledge.. 

please leave the "gotcha" spirit in the trashcan, its a complete waste of bandwidth

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Amen -- next thing you know Tiger will be accused of being the alledged man on the grassy knoll in Dallas in 1963.

An apt summary -- end the gotcha mentality and place it in the trashcan.

[Chris Cupit]

Rick - I noticed Tiger kicking around pine needles to getting a better footing.

I also understand Tom et al on the rules, and that we are allowed to move loose impediments through the green...

BUT
he was clearly making a better stance for himself, I still think play it as it lies is the way to go, and removing wet leaves from under your stance, or cut grass or pine needles is not within the true spirit of the game. 

Brett,

I hear you but you must make rules and while the spirit of the game should help determine the rules, the "spirit" alone is too subjective to be workable.  My personal pet peeve is the latitude given players who are "building stances" in bunkers.  If a golfer can be expected to swing on leaves, pinestraw, hillsides etc., why let him "dig in" at all in a bunker?  I say just walk in and hit it!

[Kalen Braley]

Interesting question Rick,

Not ok to put a towel on the ground to kneal on, but OK to remove fist fulls of pine straw to "build" a better stance?

I sense another big inconistency in the rules..   

Kalen,

One way to think of it is this:

With the towel you are putting something between you and the ground.  It is picky but you have changed the surface.  With any loose impedement, its removal helps you get to the "actual ground" and that is OK as long as the ball doesn't move. 

Chris,

I totally get this...but it seems so incongruent with the spirit/intent of the rules.

How can laying a towel down, which does virtually nothing to improve ones ability to hit the ball be "illegal", yet removing pine needles to significantly improve ones stance and ability to hit the ball be "legal"?

I understand "rules is rules" cause someone said so at some point in time, but how does this stand up to even the simplest test of logic?

[Jason Connor]

I agree that it is not a rules violation. But agree strongly with Kalen that his HELPED Tiger to execute his shot far more than Craig Stadler's towel ever did.

This would be an impossible hard rule to enforce though.

Would it also be a penalty anytime we wiggle our feet in a sand trap to dig in and get a good stance?

[Tim McManus]

At one point yesterday, Tiger bent over and blew on his golf ball, presumably to remove a bug.  I often see players waving or blowing at a marked ball on the putting green, but have never before seen a professional take this risk of potentially moving a ball in play.  I did not think it was illegal, but my brother asked why that would not be considered cleaning the ball as grass, sand etc. could be displaced along with the bug.  Is this addresses specifically in the Rules?

Edit - knew i should have looked harder before asking. 

Rule 23-1/5  Removal of Insect on Ball
Q. A live insect is stationary or crawling on a player's ball which is lying through the green. May the player remove the insect with his fingers or blow the insect off the ball?
A. Yes, in both cases, under Rule 23-1. A live insect is not considered to be adhering to the ball and therefore is a loose impediment — see Definition of "Loose Impediments."

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom Paul, I forget who it was. I think it was Kim who tossed his ball to someone in the crowd after holing out. He then started toward the next hole. I thought to change balls you had to show it to your playing partner and say it needed to be taken out of play.

[TEPaul]

"Chris,

I totally get this...but it seems so incongruent with the spirit/intent of the rules.

How can laying a towel down, which does virtually nothing to improve ones ability to hit the ball be "illegal", yet removing pine needles to significantly improve ones stance and ability to hit the ball be "legal"?

I understand "rules is rules" cause someone said so at some point in time, but how does this stand up to even the simplest test of logic?"




Kalen:

Actually this particular situation with Woods is just about an ideal example that can help explain how various golf Rules are philosophically ("Principles" Behind the Rules of Golf) structured and applied.

I realize it will seem bizarre for me to say that in many of these types of situations it does no real good to try to apply your own logic, even in its simplest form.

This situation with Woods really is an ideal example of one of the fundamental "Principles" underlying the Rules of Golf known as "Like Situations Shall Be Treated Alike."

It seems really hard for most on here who are not trained and experienced Rules officials to understand this concept and principle within the Rules of Golf.

For starters, just see if you can figure out what the "like situations" are within the Rules of Golf with this particular situation of Woods amongst pine straw "through the green." If you can't figure them out there are some very good Rules officials on this website who will help both identify them for you and explain to you how they are used in the unique Golf Rule's "Principle" of "Like Situations Shall Be Treated Alike."

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul, I forget who it was. I think it was Kim who tossed his ball to someone in the crowd after holing out. He then started toward the next hole. I thought to change balls you had to show it to your playing partner and say it needed to be taken out of play."


Tiger:

When Kim tossed his ball to a spectator his ball was not "in play" in the context of the Rules of Golf. For a player (competitor) to take his ball out of play that is "in play" yes he does need to consult his opponent or fellow competitor about it first (Ex: Rule 5-3). Also check the definition of "Ball In Play" in the Definition Section in the Rules book. After holing out your ball is no longer "in play" and you can change it without consulting with your opponent or fellow competitor. It is not "in play" again until you have hit a shot with it from the next teeing ground.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom Paul, I do not remember the player but I think it may have been Kim. The player tossed his ball to crowd after holing out without showing it or talking to playing partner. He then went and played the next hole.

[TEPaul]

Tiger:

When Kim tossed his ball to a spectator his ball was not "in play" in the context of the Rules of Golf. For a player (competitor) to take his ball out of play that is "in play" yes he does need to consult his opponent or fellow competitor about it first (Ex: Rule 5-3). Also check the definition of "Ball In Play" in the Definition Section in the Rules book. After holing out your ball is no longer "in play" and you can change it without consulting with your opponent or fellow competitor. It is not "in play" again until you have hit a shot with it from the next teeing ground.