RTJ II - Quantity vs. Quality

[Joel_Stewart]

I noticed the portfolio of RTJ Jr. on his web site www.rtj2.com the other day.  I remember Tom Doak saying he thought he could produce 1-3 good golf courses per year.  Apparently RTJ Jr. does not share the same philosophy.  Does RTJ Jr. ever say no to a site or is his fee lower than everyone else???


Domestic Courses

ALASKA
Eagleglen Golf Course, Anchorage (C) Web Site
ARIZONA
The Oakcreek Country Club of Sedona Web Site
Dove Valley Golf Course, Phoenix (C) Web Site
Las Sendas Golf Club, Mesa Web Site
Rio Rico Resort & Country Club, Rio Rico Web Site
The Raven Golf Club at Sabino Springs, Tucson  Web Site
ARKANSAS
Chenal Country Club, Little Rock Web Site
CALIFORNIA
Adobe Creek Golf & Country Club, Petaluma Web Site
Birnam Wood Golf Club, Montecito (C)
Bodega Harbour Golf Links, Bodega Bay Web Site
Bridges at Rancho Santa Fe, Rancho Santa Fe Web Site
Brookside Country Club, Stockton Web Site
Calabasas Park Golf & Country Club, Calabasas (C)
Corde Valle Golf Course, Morgan Hill Web Site
Coto De Caza Golf Club, Coto De Caza (36) Web Site
Desert Dunes Golf Club, Desert Hot Springs Web Site
Forest Meadows Golf Course, Calaveras County Web Site
Granite Bay Golf Course, Granite Bay Web Site
Laguna Seca Golf Club, Monterey (C) Web Site
Lake Shastina Resort (36 Holes), Weed Web Site
Monarch Beach Golf Links, Monarch Beach Web Site
Poppy Hills (N.C.G.A.), Pebble Beach Web Site
Rancho La Quinta Golf Club, La Quinta Web Site
Rancho San Marcos Golf Course, Santa Barbara Web Site
The Ridge Golf Course, Auburn Web Site
SCGA Member's Course (9 hole addition), Murrieta Web Site
Serrano Country Club, El Dorado County Web Site
Shoreline Golf Links, Mountain View Web Site
Silverado Country Club (South Course), Napa Web Site
Spanish Bay Golf Links, Pebble Beach (CL) Web Site
Spring Valley Lake Country Club, Victorville (C) Web Site
Squaw Creek Golf Resort, Squaw Valley Web Site
Winchester Country Club, Placer County (C)
COLORADO
Arrowhead Golf Club, Roxborough Park Web Site
Beaver Creek Golf Course, Avon Web Site
Crested Butte Country Club, Crested Butte Web Site
Keystone Ranch Golf Resort, Keystone Web Site
Steamboat Golf Club & Resort, Steamboat Springs Web Site
Ute Creek Golf Course, Longmont Web Site
FLORIDA
Celebration Golf Club, Orlando (C) Web Site
Kensington Golf Club, Naples Web Site
The Raven at Sandestin Golf and Beach Resort, Destin Florida Web Site
Weston Hills Country Club, Ft. Lauderdale (36) Web Site
The Windsor Club, Vero Beach Web Site
GEORGIA
Woodmont Golf and Country Club, Cherokee County  Web Site
HAWAII
Kiahuna Golf Village, Poipu Beach, Kauai
Makena Golf Resort (36 holes), Maui Web Site
Poipu Bay Resort Golf Course, Poipu Beach, Kauai Web Site
Princeville Prince Course, Princeville, Kauai Web Site
Princeville Makai Course (27 holes), Princeville, Kauai Web Site
Waikoloa Beach Golf Club, Waikoloa Village, Hawaii Web Site
Waikoloa Village Golf Course, Waikoloa Village, Hawaii Web Site
Wailea Golf Resort (Gold Course), Wailea, Maui Web Site
Wailea Golf Resort (Emerald Course), Wailea, Maui Web Site
IDAHO
Elkhorn Resort at Sun Valley, Sun Valley (C) Web Site
Sun Valley Resort, Sun Valley Web Site
ILLINOIS
Crystal Tree Golf Club, Orland Park
Prairie Landing Golf Club, West Chicago Web Site
ThunderHawk Golf Club, Lake County Forest Preserve
INDIANA
Prairie View Golf Club, Indianapolis Web Site
KANSAS
Crestview Country Club (South Course 9-hole addition), Wichita Web Site
Deer Creek Golf Course, Overland Park Web Site
LOUISIANA
Le Triomphe Golf & Country Club, Lafayette Web Site
MAINE
Sugarloaf Golf Club, Carrabassett Valley Web Site
MASSACHUSETTS
Charter Oak Country Club, Hudson
MICHIGAN
The Orchards Golf Club, Detroit Web Site
MINNESOTA
Edinburgh USA, Brooklyn Park Web Site
MISSOURI
Highland Springs Country Club, Springfield Web Site
Tiffany Greens Golf Club, Kansas City
NEVADA
Incline Village Golf Resort (Executive Course), Lake Tahoe Web Site
Lake Ridge Golf Course, Reno (C) Web Site
Red Hawk Golf Club at Wingfield Springs, Sparks Web Site
Southern Highlands Country Club, Las Vegas, Web Site
Spanish Trail Golf & Country Club (27 holes), Las Vegas
NEW MEXICO
Cochiti Lake Golf Course, Cochiti Lake Web Site
NEW YORK
Long Island National Golf Course, Riverhead
NORTH DAKOTA
Oxbow Country Club, Oxbow Web Site
OHIO
Jefferson Golf & Country Club, Columbus Web Site
Wedgewood Golf & Country Club, Columbus Web Site
OREGON
Eagle Point Golf Club, Medford Web Site
Eugene Country Club, Eugene (C) Web Site
Heron Lakes Golf Course, Portland (36) Web Site
Sunriver Resort (North Course), Sunriver Web Site
TEXAS
Horseshoe Bay Resort (Slickrock Course), Horseshoe Bay Web Site
Las Colinas Sports Club (original 18 holes), Irving
Mill Creek Golf & Country Club, Salado Web Site
Sky Creek Ranch, Keller
VIRGINIA
Lansdowne Golf Resort, Leesburg Web Site
WISCONSIN
Madeline Island Golf Links, LaPointe Web Site
Sentry World Golf Course, Stevens Point Web Site
University of Wisconsin Golf Course, Madison
WYOMING
Jackson Hole Golf & 'Tennis Club, Jacks on Hole (C) Web Site

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International Courses
ARUBA
Tierra del Sol Golf Club, Oranjested Web Site
AUSTRALIA
Hyatt Regency Coolum Golf Course, Sunshine Coast
Joondalup Country Club , Perth (27)
Meadow Springs Golf Club, Mandurah, Western Australia Web Site
The Cape Golf Club, Cape Schanck, Melbourne
The National Golf Club, Cape Schanck, Melbourne area Web Site
CANADA
Chateau Whistler Golf Resort, Whistler, British Columbia Web Site
Glencoe Golf & Country Club, Calgary, Alberta (36) Web Site
Stuart Island Golf Club, British Columbia
CHINA
Habour Plaza Golf Course, Dongguan
Shanghai Country Club, Shanghai Web Site
Spring City Resort Golf Course Kunming, Lui Shu Wan Web Site
Trans Strait Golf Course, Fuzhou City, Fujian, China
COLUMBIA
Mesa De Yeguas Country Club, Anipoima (27) Web Site
COSTA RICA
Conchal Golf Course, Playa Conchal Web Site
FIJI
Pacific Harbour Golf Course, Duba
FINLAND
Ruuhikoski Golf Course, Nurmo Web Site
FRANCE
Chateau de Gaillon G.C., Gaillon Sur Montcient
Club de Bondues, Lille
Golf & Country Club de Bossey Haute Savoie Web Site
Golf Club de Grenoble, Grenoble Web Site
Saint Donat Golf Country Club, Cannes-Grasse Web Site
Vidauban Golf Course, Vidauban (C)
GERMANY
Seddiner See Golf Course, Berlin
GREAT BRITAIN
Celtic Manor Golf Course, Newport, Gwent, Wales (C)
The Wisley Golf Club, Surrey (27) Web Site
HONG KONG
Discovery Bay Golf Club (original 18 holes), Lantau Island Web Site
INDONESIA
Hambalong Golf Course
Pantai Indah Kapuk Golf Course, Jakarta
Pondok Indah Country Club, Jakarta Selatan
ITALY
Castello Antognolla Golf Course, Umbertide
JAPAN
Cherry Hills Golf Club, Miki, Hyogo (27)
The Country Club, Shigaraki, Shiga
Eastwood Golf Club, Tochigi
Golden Valley Golf Club, Nishiwaki, Hyogo
Hokkaido Country Club, Onuma Course, Hokkaido
Karuizawa Golf 72 (four 18-hole courses), Karuizawa, Gumma
Katsura Golf Course, Hokkaido
King Hills Country Club, Kumamoto
Kinojo Golf Club, Okayama
Miho Country Club, Ibaraki
Nasu Highland Golf & Country Club, Tochigi
Oak Hills Country Club, Chiba
Onuma Prince Country Club, Hokkaido
Pine Lake Golf Club, Nishiwaki, Hyogo
Regus Crest Golf Club (Royal Course), Hiroshima
Regus Crest Golf Club (Grand Course), Hiroshima
Sapporo Prince Golf Club (36 holes), Hokkaido
Shigaraki Country Club (Sugiyama Course Redesign), Shigaraki
Shizukuishi Golf Course (original 18 holes), Mt. Takakura
Springfield Golf Club, Tajimi, Gifu Web Site
Sun Hills Country Club (36 holes), Tochigi
Zuiryo Golf Club, Gifu
KOREA
Everland Golf Course, Yongin-Gun, Kyungki-Do
Oak Valley Resort, Wonju, Korea
Yong Pyeong Golf Club, Yong Pyeong Resort
MALAYSIA
Bukit Jambul Country Club, Penang Web Site
Desaru Resort, Johor Web Site
Pulai Springs Resort, Johor Baru
The Mines Golf & Country Club, Kuala Lumpur Web Site
MEXICO
Cabo Real Golf Club, Cabo San Lucas, Baja California Web Site
Cancun PokTa-Pok Resort Course, Quintana Roo
Club de Golf Palma Real, Ixtapa-Zihuatanejo, Guerrero
Marina Mazatlan Golf Resort, Mazatlan
NEW ZEALAND
Gulf Harbour Golf Course, Whangaparaoa Web Site
NORWAY
Miklagard Golf Club Web Site

PHILIPPINES
Alabang Golf & Country Club, Rizal Web Site
Calatagan Golf Course, Batangas Web Site
Canlubang Golf Course (36 holes), Laguna
Pueblo de Oro Golf Course, Mindinao
Puerto Azul Golf Course, Puerto Azul
Sta. Elena Golf & Country Club, Laguna (27) Web Site
PORTUGAL
Penha Longa Golf Club, Sintra Web Site
RUSSIA
Moscow Country Club, Nahabino, Moscow Web Site
SINGAPORE
Desaru Golf Club, Singapore  Web Site
Raffles Country Club (36 holes)

SOUTH AFRICA
Wild Coast Country Club, Transkei Web Site
SPAIN
Club de Bonmont Terres Noves, Tarragona Web Site
Real Club Puerta de Hierro, Madrid Web Site
TAIWAN
Ta Shee Resort, Tao Yuan
The Royal Country Club, Miao-Li
Sun Rise Country Club, Yang Mei
THAILAND
Eastern Star Country Club, Ban Chang Web Site
Green Valley Country Club, Bangkok
Navatanee Golf Course, Bangkok Web Site
President Country Club (36 holes), Bangkok Web Site
Santiburi Golf Club, Chiang Rai Web Site
THE BAHAMAS
Bahama Reef Golf Course, Grand Bahama Island
WEST INDIES
Four Seasons Resort, Nevis
Royal Westmoreland Golf Club, St. James, Barbados Web Site

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[ian]

How many people do they employ?

[Michael_Burrows]

I guess not.... You think that maybe he just likes to travel.  
  

[Paul Turner]

Isn't quantity important too?

It's a balance, and obviously the greatest architects have both quantity and quality.  

[Michael_Burrows]

I have never played a RTJ II course so i can not say anything about the quality but one of his courses, Wentwood Hills will host the 2010 Ryder Cup.  

I'm sure that there is far more quantity vs. Quality. though.



  

[David Wigler]

Joel,

Obviously I have not played 1/10 of the courses he has done.  I will say this though, he is the only architect working today who I have played more than four courses and have not played a single one I would call weak.  He may have mastered quantity and quality.  Given this threads title, I am assuming you have played some efforts you feel he mailed in.  Which ones?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

Doesn't Quantity have a Quality all of its own ?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am not sure this is even on solid grounds. RTJ II has a big staff and has been buiding courses for many years. Tom is still is the early stages coming into his prime in the profession. RTJ II charges a high fee that is on the high side of the big names guys. I agree with doak that one man can only do 1 to 3 a year. I really think 2 in the limit in perfect world.

[Craig Rokke]

Is it possible to be hired to do some 200 courses if most of
your work stinks? I doubt it.

Sure, guys like RTJII can't be at 9 sites simultaneously, so it
really depends on the calibre of his employees, I would think.

At any rate, he's got to be among the most global of architects. Must be tough on the family life.

[Michael_Burrows]

How can an architect design a good golf course if he does not visit the site. If the architect does not visit the site does he even deserve credit for the design?

Ross, Raynor, Mackenzie, Macdonald, A.W. Tillinghast, Dye and Fazio these are the great Architects. They visited the sites and walked the land before drawing the planes.They were also great golfers too. Dye says that he does not feel comfortable about not seeing the development of a site in person.  

Could it be that maybe his name is what that is getting him the credit? Maybe no other architect would take the on the project?    

Crump only design one Golf course and it is still the top classic course        

So how can you give credit to someone who has a staff working under him building courses under his name.  

I would have to say that Quantity wins on this one

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Michael,
You are new to the site so I hope you are not banished for lumping Fazio in with Tillie, Ross, Raynor, Mackenzie and Macdonald.  Fazio is very notable for a big staff and lots of courses on the go, which he does not see a lot of.

Seriously though, obviously his name lends credibility, but so does his body of work.  

If quantity wins, which are the weak courses?  I am with David though, I have played 10 (maybe 15) of RTJ2's courses, and cannot recall a really weak one.  Poipu is probably one of the lower ones, but it is not bad.

Please someone add the weak ones.  Also, the Prince course is one of the great modern courses in my books.

[Bill_McBride]

These courses have been built over a long period of time - 25 years?  So the annual output is not as overwhelming as the total list.

I've only played 7 that I can recall from the list, and the courses have ranged from very good (with a couple of problems) to awful.

The good courses I've played are typically varied in length, have good short par 4's and good routings, pretty much formulaic bunkering.  These are Desert Dunes in Palm Springs, Rancho San Marcos above Santa Barbara (unwalkable), and Edinburgh USA in Minneapolis (a couple of bad holes).  

The bad ones are forced on the land, routed strangely, and don't take advantage of interesting sites (see Landsdowne). Here the formulaic bunkering and green sites become boring.  These include Landsdowne outside Washington DC (a long slog leapfrogging through wetlands - and that's in a cart), Silverado South (got the worse holes of the original 18 and new sloping property laid out poorly), and Mill Creek north of Austin TX (could have made much better use of the creek, funky Texas bunker on #2).  But the booby prize goes to Birnam Woods in Santa Barbara, which is the most ungodly 18 holes ever jammed into what seems like 60 acres of grass between huge mansions.  The irony is that MacKenzie's Valley Club of Montecito masterpiece is across a fence on the south edge of the property!  RTJ II should have spent some time over there for inspiration.  But I fear it was strictly a money deal.  

[Doug Wright]

Michael Burrows,

FYI Donald Ross designed many, many golf courses without ever visiting the site--he did them via topo maps. And he had some pretty damn good assistants who took his plans, knew exactly what he wanted, and executed.

You say, "So how can you give credit to someone who has a staff working under him building courses under his name." Very easily. First, he brings the business in the door. Second, he hires, trains and pays those staff to execute the plans, which I'm fairly certain he reviews and approves.

Also, how can you make any assessment about the quality of RTJ II's courses if you've not even played one?

Re this thread I sincerely wish this site were searchable. There was a fairly extensive discussion of RTJ II's work on here in the last 3-4 months. As I recall, the general conclusion was favourable, though with this volume of work there are bound to be some clunkers. My own personal experience is RTJ II did middling work with some difficult but scenic sites (eg Beaver Creek and Arrowhead in Colo), and I much preferred his more recent work work at Dove Valley Ranch in Az, which features some solid traditional golf holes with some decent bunkering and a good routing.

All The Best,

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I would propose a way to judge the large volume of work assigned to the firm of RTJII, is knowing now what the owners know, would they use RTJII again.
For example, his firm helped put Rancho San Marcos into bankruptcy; thus I doubt they would use him again. One must give him some credit somewhere for running such a successful design firm.  Most of us on this site would be critical of a lot of their work, but they roll in the cash.
Some of the courses listed above are renovations incidentally, below are some letter grades I would put on the courses I have played.
This grade is on architectural merit, trying to disregard the beauty or difficulty of the site.
Prince course Hawaii................A- wide open
Rancho San Marcos.................C a can't walk back 9
Calabasas CC.........................C, wasn't bad when opened
Arrowhead.............................C what a setting
Poppy Hills.............................C Azinger calls it sloppy hills
Birnam Wood..........................C leave the driver at home
Monarch Beach.......................D didn't use the ocean well
Coto de Caza.........................D an excellent site ruined
The courses are all different because they are done by different design associates.  In general too many fairway bunkers in the landing areas, built up greens with silly mounds which create 4 putt scenios for the average player, built up greens which kick all missed shots another 10 yards away from the intended target, holes with lakes and small areas to lay up.  On many par 5s one may hit driver, 6 iron, wedge due to big lakes.

[Joel_Stewart]

I started this thread more in response to the Cordevale thread in which I mentioned RTJ2 has produced 2 very good golf courses in Northern California the last few years, Cordevalle and Winchester.  
What shocked me was the huge body of work this man has done over his lifetime.  The fact is that he only has one course on Golf Digest's top 100 (Princeville) and IMHO has taken mostly development or resort courses for the money.

Lynn:  I thought the same thing that some of the courses where remodels but he lists those on a seperate list which is attached?

Golf Course Remodeling
By Robert Trent Jones II
CALIFORNIA
Annandale Country Club,Pasadena
Bel-Air Country Club, Los Angeles
California Golf Club, South San Francisco
El Caballero Country Club, Tarzana
Glendora Country Club,Glendora
Hacienda Country Club, La Habra
Los Angeles Country Club, Los Angeles
Menlo Country Club, Woodside
Mission Viejo Country Club, Mission Viejo
Palo Alto Golf Course, Palo Alto
Pasatiempo Golf Club, Santa Cruz
San Gabriel Country Club, San Gabriel
Santa Rosa Country Club, Santa Rosa
Silverado Country Club (North Course), Napa
Stanford University Golf Course, Palo Alto
HAWAII
Kuilima Golf Course, Oahu
Mauna Kea Beach Hotel Golf Course, Kamuela
Royal Kaanapali Golf Course, Maui
MICHIGAN
Country Club of Detroit, Detroit
NEVADA
Incline Village Resort Course, Lake Tahoe
NEW YORK
Fresh Meadow Country Club, Long Island
PHILIPPINES
Luisita Country Club

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Courses Under Construction
DOMESTIC
Cochiti Lake (New 9), Cochiti Lake, New Mexico
Cragun's Golf Resort, Brainerd , Minnesota
Greenhorn Creek Golf Club (Remodel), Angeles Camp, California
Haworth Country Club, Haworth, New Jersey
Mill Creek Golf Club, Salado, Texas
Winchester Country Club, California

INTERNATIONAL
Aucanada Golf Resort, Mallorca, Spain
Castello Antognolla Golf Course, Umbertide, Italy
Holtsmark Golf Club, Drammen, Norway Web Site
Khajuraho Golf Course, Khajuraho, India (formerly Srinagar)
Margarita Golf Course, Margarita Island, Porlamar, Venezuela

David Wigler:
I have played about 15 of his courses and I'll just mention that Squaw Creek in Squaw Valley is the worst RTJ2 course I've played.  Its especially disappointing since Kyle Phillips was the design associate.

Patrick:
Does quantity have a quality in its own?  Possibly in an organizational aspect.  The point being how much of his personal quality time does he really put into each project.  I'll call you at your office on Monday.

[Brian Phillips]

RTJ II is building two more courses in Norway at the moment making it three in three years.  

The man is hardly ever on site and it his right hand man Bruce Charlton that has designed the courses over here.

I will not go into opinions on this site about what I think about design work but just say that I do not like it, not that I am correct as the public who have played his course called Miklagaard are very happy with it.

The main thing I do not like about the work the company has done here in Norway is the amount of earthmoving, which has been ridiculous.  If that is the policy in the company then I don't think they have ever built a natural golf course.

Cheers Brian.

[Michael_Burrows]

To Doug

I really don't care what you say about RTJ II the point is that he will never be compared to Ross or Fazio ...

He can design all the courses he wants to his hearts desire.

The point is that he will always be know for his name not his work!!!

[David Wigler]

Michael Burrows,

I am thrilled you have decided to particpate in this site.  It will be a good education for you.  

Your comments on RTJ II are just silly.  You have never played any of his courses yet you criticise his work.  You feel he should not get credit because he hasn't been at all his sites unlike Donald Ross.  The comments make no sense.  Donald Ross is credited with hundreds of courses that he never visited.  Neville designed almost no courses and yet his Pebble Beach is considered a masterpiece.  Ross designed thousands of courses and has many courses considered masterpieces.  Quantity and Quality have no relation.  A good starting point for you might be Brad Klein's book on Ross.  You would find it educational.

Go play some of RTJ II's courses.  If you like them fine.  If not, explain what doesn't work.  RTJ II is already know for a lot more than his name.

[Anthony O Shea]

I've played all of RTJ jnr's courses in Australia, and I think it's all quality stuff, with the possible exception of a few holes on the Cape Schanck/Shearwater resort course (which, in RTJ jnr's defence is in parts an impossible piece of land).

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the RTJj course at The National and the Quarry nine at Joondalup are two of the three or four most compelling, original, challenging, surprisingly playable and downright fun modern courses in Australia.

The accepted wisdom on The National, perpetuated internationally by the [I'm guessing here] 90 minutes that Mr Doak spent looking at the course nearly 15 years ago, is that it's some kind of over-the-top, unplayable monster with grotesque contouring on the greens... the kind of course you might play once for 'the experience' and the spectacular views, and be thankful that you don't have to play it every week like the poor (albeit 'nouveau riche' in Doak's description) members.

The members deserve no such sympathy, and wouldn't swap the RTJ jnr course for any other course in Australia. It's simply the most beguiling, bewitching, confounding course in the country. You're forced to make more consciously strategic decisions at The National than at any other course I know, and this is true from the tee, laying up in the fairway, into the greens, around the greens and - especially - on the greens.

Regardless of which club you have in hand, the straight line or the obvious shot is almost invariably not the best play, in fact in many cases it's absolutely the wrong play.

The course only gets better the more you play it, and to be honest I can't think of a better club course, especially for a social match which is after all what it's all about.

Anthony.