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Bill_McBride

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2010, 04:29:47 PM »
Don, in my mind Wolf Point is exactly the kind of course we will need in the future.  Fun to play, extremely fun, firm, challenging but fun, did I mention fun, and reasonable maintenance budget.

I am so glad to hear that you and Joe Hancock are forming a company, that will be a very good team.

Mike Hendren

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2010, 04:34:02 PM »
What Don Mahaffey said.   Brilliant, low overhead, roll up your sleeves, regular guy (Hancock, not Nuzzo the rocket scientist), passionate and SMART approach to business.  Out-thinking and out working the competition never goes out of style.

It made me think of the following juxtaposition:  A couple of years ago I received a tour of a local Jackie Nicklaus design midway through construction that was to anchor a residential development.  Initially funded by a local who had sold a successful business.  Prominent photographs of the developer/marketing man with Jack and Jackie in the cabin of a private jet hanging on the wall.  I'm assuming whatever work was in place has long since washed away since the developer ran out of cash and could not get bank financing.  

Several million dollars is a steep price to pay for a ride on Jack's plane and a commemorative photograph.  

Mike, I think you're onto something with that design/build approach.  If I can get Hancock to teach me how to operate heavy equipment, can I work for you as a shaper when I retire from the banking business in another ten years?  Building a bunker is on my bucket list.

Bogey





Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Joe Hancock

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2010, 04:36:01 PM »
I don't have any substance to add, because as far as I can understand, all has been said that is good for the game....it just needs to be put into practice.

I do have a couple new words for Brad.....frugal, which isn't necessarily cheap, but it does utilize resources to the fullest extent. And instead of "git r done", I propose the White Collar version......"Complete the Task!" So, Brad.....we'll mull those terms over at your earliest convenience..... :)

Nice post, Mike Y.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Davis Wildman

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2010, 04:47:44 PM »
As Don says..heres where we are going:

Example...guy needs a deck on his home....does he pay for a few thousand dollars in plans and have a contractor come and order an exotic wood or does he get the local home remodeler to come out and build the deck....

Same will happen at golf courses...architecture and building are going to meld together:  In Jim Urbina's Interview he says: " as we look back in history every great golf course designer had an associate and labor crew that gave every waking moment of their time to create wonderful and thoughtful designs envisioned by the Icons of golf."  Whether it is a classic on a superor piece of land or the local golf course....that is the future of how to get it done....

For me this video says it better than most....when it comes to all the fancy degrees and methods and everything else that gets hyped on some of this stuff:
Check it out   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlLk4O01Vd4   the simple basic method worked....

Mike...this vid and your Shirley Q Liquor links crack me up...what would we do without UTube on GCA DG?

More to the point...you're spot on...good discussion guys! 

Jeff_Brauer

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2010, 04:54:51 PM »
You guys are talking tough, but when you find out that frilly edge bunkers will be the first thing to go, you will be running for the hills!

I have no doubt that this economy will change how we do business for years.  But, most of us are already doing cost effective business anyway.  I agree with Mike that its pretty uneconomical to hire a gca full bore for plans, specs, etc. on a one or two green remodel, even though some cities require that to be done because of competitive bidding laws.  

Also, all it takes is one experience with a slightly inefficient design build outfit to make you want to consider having a gca in your corner, too.  At some point, someone is going to ask if a single source entity really gave you the lowest price possible, and bids or extensive comparison of proposals is one way to do that.  It would seem to me that at least parts of the golf biz would be gravitating to more cost controls via project managemen in this economy, but know that sometimes its the gca who gets cut out, usually with a phrase like "we don't need to spend money on design!"  

But, for small remodels, a small contractor with low overhead and design ability or low cost relationship with a similar minded gca does make a lot of sense in many cases.

Not sure about Jim Urbina's overly romanticized view of dedicated workers.  Isn't it standard wisdom that many were devoted to the bottle?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2010, 05:04:06 PM »
Not sure about Jim Urbina's overly romanticized view of dedicated workers.  Isn't it standard wisdom that many were devoted to the bottle?

Of course they were, the bottle hole has long been regarded as a classic...

Mike, nice thought provoking thread. In many ways, you merely described the beauty and ugliness of dynamic free markets, though few will likely see it that way.

There are countless numbers of people who start countless numbers of businesses every year, each driven by a dream others said was unsustainable. Yet some sustain in spite, for as many reasons as there are motivations.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Nugent

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2010, 05:30:16 PM »
I like design/build.  I can shape a green in about as much time as it takes to do one on paper and I'd rather put the time into the field.  That said, there are 2 sides to every coin.  D/B only works if the people are honest and the client is trusting.  It's harder to give an accuate up- front price without detailed plans because one simply doesn't have the quantities.  And most pricing is done based on a guess-tamation of time needed.  If a D/B gets behind, he has no way to go back to the client and say "I gave you a price thinking this would only take a week but it's taken two so I need more money".  And the client thinks the estimate was somehow a Guaranteed Max price.  So, if the D/B is getting short changed, he can "design" his way back into the black - but is this in the best interests of the project?

Also, as Jeff pointed out, if there are "againsters" in the club house, they will be spinning it that it could of been done cheaper by so & so, or so & so says we're getting ripped off.  Or my favorite - "I thought you were going to '_______' as part of the price" when it's the 1st you've ever heard of iit.

I don't know if there is a perfect system but I have seen a lot of courses/clubs in Chicago who saved money by just having a local contractor 'design IT from the seat of his dozer' and IT is defined as A)what the greens chairman, B)super, C)pro, D)GM E)member writing the check wants - whether it makes long-term sense or not.
Coasting is a downhill process

Mike Hendren

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2010, 05:31:32 PM »
Forget about the sustainability of golf, inquiring minds want to know what you guys can do about Guam's potential capsizing.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Dan Herrmann

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2010, 07:59:13 PM »
One random thought in response to Bradley's call for a paradigm shift:  The industry should do what it can to convince the golfing public that playing nine holes on a nine holes golf course is the norm.   I am already seeing that begin to work in the housing industry, where the 1800 sf craftsman bungalow is hot the the 4500 sf tract mansion is not.   Affordability and quality architecture are not mutually exclusive.

Mike

Sooo true.  What's old is new again.

I live in one of those bungalow townhouses.  10 years ago, people kinda laughed at me for living in a "starter home".  Today they're jealous.

Nine hole loops may be key to golf's growth.  We need to get kids into the game, and that means taking them (and their parents) away from the soccer pitch or whatever else they're up to these days.  By getting folks a 2.5 hour golf experience, we'll hook them.

Again, this is back to the future - when I was a kid our local publics always had a 9 hole rate.

Dan Herrmann

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2010, 08:00:28 PM »
Forget about the sustainability of golf, inquiring minds want to know what you guys can do about Guam's potential capsizing.

Bogey

Wow - can you believe that congressman?  I give the military officer an A+ for his class for not further embarrassing the guy.

Mike_Young

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2010, 08:08:45 PM »
Forget about the sustainability of golf, inquiring minds want to know what you guys can do about Guam's potential capsizing.

Bogey

Here is Guam answer from our Representative in Atlanta....  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9R-cQ_A_6w

Jeff,
I can see your points but I have come to the conclusion that such is just another method...and that is fine...For myself I have decided that GCA is more like an art form and I feel that I wish to do my work with as much design/build as possible.  Sure I might not get to do some work for a municipality or I might adjust for such if I wish....I guess I would compare it to a sculptor who drew a sketch of what he wanted and bid out the actual statue....we all just have to do it our way....
I find it ironic that guys like Pete Dye or Bill Coore would probably not be condoned as "architects" by some groups except for the fact that their courses have so much notoriety around the globe...but when such a course outshines so many courses built with GC's and plans then ........what does one do?  .if they were just a regional guy..many architects would be slamming the way they have gone about getting a course ready to play.  IMHO we have complicated a very simple industry in all facets....
Cheers....
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 08:17:48 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2010, 11:11:13 PM »
Mike,

I thiink I said there are different methods, and some work better in some arenas than others.  I also agree on the technical aspects getting maybe too hard, especially in terms of greens construction, where the USGA method was proposed to simplify things and later, because of (IMHO) testing labs, mixing companies, agronomists, etc., buildiing greens got to be very contentious, and many have overdone them (again, IMHO) in the name of standards, or butt covering, etc.  Its not just the cost of building "perfect" greens, its the cost of three more consultants to help you build perfect greens!

But, I sense some topic drift.  Pete has been accepted as an architect by nearly every group including ASGCA for decades (I presume that is who you were ranting against).  He HAS NOT ever been accused of building sustainable golf courses that are either cheap to build or maintain!  His courses started the flymo trend, among other things, which is pretty labor intensive, and certainly requires scrutiny for most courses in this economic climate as to whether all that hand mowing (the old 6 guys, 6 hours, 6 day a week formula) is WORTH the expense to create that "pure art" look.

Those business people in golf generally say no, and will continue to say no in greater quantities in the very near future. I think we will see a lot of Dye courses go under the knife in the next decade.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bradley Anderson

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2010, 07:14:59 AM »
Jeff,

I would say that these newer grasses have made the sand gradients more of an issue with USGA greens. I think when you were seeding them with Pencross, that was going to maintained at 8-9 feet on a stimpmeter, you had a much broader range of sand gradient to use. But now with these really tight bents that need to be topdressed weekly, you have to really search for just the right sand. It can't be too fine, it can't be too coarse, and you can't have too much of it all falling within one gradient or it will play soft.

My point is, its not necessarily the USGA green specification that has made greens more expensive to build these days. I would say that these newer grasses are a big part of the equation. 

Mike_Young

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2010, 07:15:44 AM »
Mike,

I thiink I said there are different methods, and some work better in some arenas than others.  I also agree on the technical aspects getting maybe too hard, especially in terms of greens construction, where the USGA method was proposed to simplify things and later, because of (IMHO) testing labs, mixing companies, agronomists, etc., buildiing greens got to be very contentious, and many have overdone them (again, IMHO) in the name of standards, or butt covering, etc.  Its not just the cost of building "perfect" greens, its the cost of three more consultants to help you build perfect greens!

But, I sense some topic drift.  Pete has been accepted as an architect by nearly every group including ASGCA for decades (I presume that is who you were ranting against).  He HAS NOT ever been accused of building sustainable golf courses that are either cheap to build or maintain!  His courses started the flymo trend, among other things, which is pretty labor intensive, and certainly requires scrutiny for most courses in this economic climate as to whether all that hand mowing (the old 6 guys, 6 hours, 6 day a week formula) is WORTH the expense to create that "pure art" look.

Those business people in golf generally say no, and will continue to say no in greater quantities in the very near future. I think we will see a lot of Dye courses go under the knife in the next decade.


Jeff,
Was not ranting against anyone...just saying that spec wise and drawing/detail wise...Dye or Coore was not where you would look ...we agree on the other stuff...
Now for ranting...all this genetic engineering of plants has given us a 5800 pollen count here today....a high is considered 120.  You see a dust cloud behind cars....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2010, 08:24:07 AM »
Bradley,

The new grasses do present some different challenges, but most supers I talk to figure that once they know how to manage the grasses, its okay.  But, it has been a long time since anyone worked on new grasses to be easier to maintain rather than easier to cut shorter.  As I have said before, we spend more time talking grass varieties now than we ever did back in the college dorms!

Mike,

I understand your points, and no doubt that many private clubs and entities are looking at design build as a way to streamline the process.  It can go quite well but I am not entirely sold on it.  It can reduce the drawings necessary but someone still has to figure out what specs are going to be used as a basis for the contract to avoid the "I thought that was inluded" problem Tim Nugent notes.  It is easier to change specs to balance out costs where budget is an issue.

It is probably not of interest to this group, but most design-build contracts for large projects still make the gca responsible for plans and specs to the same degree as design bid situation.  The problem for gca's is that in reality, the contractor really sets the specs based on the owners budget, and we can often get into an uncomfortable "rubber stamp" situation, if we happen to disagree. 

It is fortunate and rare for gca's like Coore and Crenshaw to be able to work in essence without contracts, budgets, etc. No doubt that helps them in creating great golf courses, but its not for everyone.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt Day

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2010, 08:30:03 AM »
isn't the general tone of this thread panning out to be "Golf in America is no longer sustainable as we know it..."

Tom_Doak

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2010, 08:39:12 AM »
Matt:

To be more precise, it's "Golf where it's run by Americans is no longer sustainable as we know it."  We are wrecking the economics of golf in other places as well.


It is probably not of interest to this group, but most design-build contracts for large projects still make the gca responsible for plans and specs to the same degree as design bid situation.  The problem for gca's is that in reality, the contractor really sets the specs based on the owners budget, and we can often get into an uncomfortable "rubber stamp" situation, if we happen to disagree.  

It is fortunate and rare for gca's like Coore and Crenshaw to be able to work in essence without contracts, budgets, etc. No doubt that helps them in creating great golf courses, but its not for everyone.

Jeff:

For the record, I'm working now with Bill Coore on a project where we'll do courses side by side.  I can assure you that there is a budget / cost estimate and that we have put a fair amount of time into it.  In fact, I've got to make a special trip in a couple of weeks to have meetings to finalize the budget [and to get my picture taken with Bill and Ben].

We do have some special clients and we work very hard trying to find them.  But that doesn't mean we aren't very cost-conscious, as you seem to imply.  In fact, if we ever laid out the total construction costs of all the new courses built over the past 20 years, I would be glad to wager a lot of money that our method has produced high quality results for equal or less money than the other courses in the same neighborhood or in the same class.

I am curious how you spec bunker sand in your contracts.  In our world, we've got a cost estimate for it, but we get samples of the various sands early in construction and let the client choose what he likes best, weighing cost vs. quality.  [I've gone that way because I've had a couple of clients who insisted on paying for bunker sand that I never would have chosen for them.]  If you go with your "fixed price" method but then give clients the same option, is it really a fixed price method?  Or don't the change orders blow that out of the window?

Matt Day

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2010, 08:44:03 AM »
Tom
Can we export some Aussie thriftiness to help? I'm happy to spend a year in San Diego if it can help  ;D

paul cowley

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2010, 08:50:39 AM »
I've always been with Mike, Tom, Joe/Don and the others that for the most part employ some form of Design/Build, as its always the most efficient way to create the best course for the least amount.

We only need do enough plans to get things started in the field...and if the designer is not there to coordinate and control construction, costs multiply.

I always try to use the local talent and materials when I can....and do a lot of job training in the process.

If a big Golf Construction firm has its own plane I walk...run...the other way.

If a super can't talk savings and less than perfect conditions...and doesn't work with his group in the field...I know we are going to have a tough time.

1000+ head courses drive me crazy, as 500+ has always been fine...ditto high end irrigation designers.

Using more than two types of grasses for definition...and a lot of bents and zoysias make me nervous. Just building in higher costs.

I hardly ever build bunkers for 'effect'....if its not strategic it rarely makes the cut...and saves costs.

I could go on but fortunately have to go check out a possible renovation from 36 holes to 18 on a west coast course....if only the damn sun would come up.....I hate to read my own rants anyway.


« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 09:00:34 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Sean_A

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2010, 08:56:10 AM »
I recall playing Shepherd's Hollow during the Ryder Cup in Detroit.  It was clear to me then (probably the first high end public course I played in about 10 years) that this type of development on a large scale throughout teh country would never work long term.  Golf was never sustainable as it came to be known by the 90s.  The problem is took 15 years for the industry to figure it out. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mike_Young

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2010, 09:10:49 AM »
I recall playing Shepherd's Hollow during the Ryder Cup in Detroit.  It was clear to me then (probably the first high end public course I played in about 10 years) that this type of development on a large scale throughout teh country would never work long term.  Golf was never sustainable as it came to be known by the 90s.  The problem is took 15 years for the industry to figure it out. 

Ciao
Sean,
The industry always knew it....all just wanted to be sure they had a chair when the music stopped and didn't want to be the one to stop it.... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Hendren

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2010, 10:17:44 AM »
You guys are talking tough, but when you find out that frilly edge bunkers will be the first thing to go, you will be running for the hills!

 ;D

Time to take action.  I propose the GCA 1500 Man March on the Capitol.  Potential chants:

Hey hey ho ho, frilly bunkers have to go!
That's all right, that's okay we're gonna play nine holes today!
Architects united, will not be conceited!
Two bit, four bits, six bits a dollar, let's eliminate rough from the collar.
Hell no, unwatered grass won't grow!
Firm and fast, firm and fast, everybody else can kiss our ______!
We've got Tom Doak yes we do - we've got Tom Doak how 'bout you?

I volunteer to lead the parade:



Mike

btw, can anybody get us on Congressional?




Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Ally Mcintosh

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2010, 10:25:50 AM »

For the record, I'm working now with Bill Coore on a project where we'll do courses side by side.  

Tom, this isn't Kilshannig back on the table is it?... Somehow I doubt it... But I do hope so...

Back on topic: I have lots to say on this subject... I've just written a piece about it... Suffice to say, we should theoretically have an easier job in the UK but it is going to be surprisingly hard in Ireland (if it ever recovers) which has been built on the falsehood that was the Celtic Tiger over the last 20 years...

Jeff_Brauer

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2010, 10:34:03 AM »
Matt:

To be more precise, it's "Golf where it's run by Americans is no longer sustainable as we know it."  We are wrecking the economics of golf in other places as well.


It is probably not of interest to this group, but most design-build contracts for large projects still make the gca responsible for plans and specs to the same degree as design bid situation.  The problem for gca's is that in reality, the contractor really sets the specs based on the owners budget, and we can often get into an uncomfortable "rubber stamp" situation, if we happen to disagree.  

It is fortunate and rare for gca's like Coore and Crenshaw to be able to work in essence without contracts, budgets, etc. No doubt that helps them in creating great golf courses, but its not for everyone.

Jeff:

For the record, I'm working now with Bill Coore on a project where we'll do courses side by side.  I can assure you that there is a budget / cost estimate and that we have put a fair amount of time into it.  In fact, I've got to make a special trip in a couple of weeks to have meetings to finalize the budget [and to get my picture taken with Bill and Ben].

We do have some special clients and we work very hard trying to find them.  But that doesn't mean we aren't very cost-conscious, as you seem to imply.  In fact, if we ever laid out the total construction costs of all the new courses built over the past 20 years, I would be glad to wager a lot of money that our method has produced high quality results for equal or less money than the other courses in the same neighborhood or in the same class.

I am curious how you spec bunker sand in your contracts.  In our world, we've got a cost estimate for it, but we get samples of the various sands early in construction and let the client choose what he likes best, weighing cost vs. quality.  [I've gone that way because I've had a couple of clients who insisted on paying for bunker sand that I never would have chosen for them.]  If you go with your "fixed price" method but then give clients the same option, is it really a fixed price method?  Or don't the change orders blow that out of the window?

TD,

I didn't mean to imply you didn't worry about costs.  I don't know exactly how you budget things, but as another example, I have seen some Fazio bid forms, and he actually does a fair amount of accurate quantity estimating before hand, despite not having hard finished plans to back those up.

I think the differences we are talking about is when the gca is control, vs the contractor being the lead dog.  Many prefer the contractor to head up a project, since he has the financial resources, bonding, etc.  It would be nice if ALL projects could be a handshake, but that doesn't always happen.

As to sand, I research the costs and options, and pick one for a base bid.  If the Owner wants to change, he pays the difference the contractor would pay for materials. One thing I detest is gca's who don't specify a sand, and try to hang the contractor for $45 sand later on when they reasonably bid $20 sand.  In any contract arrangement, transparency and specificity are pretty good things.

In the end, I find that in any contract arrangement, if the parties are all striving for the best value, there is a way to work it out.  Change order, field order, informal horse trading, etc.  A good gca keeps designing until the last seed is in the ground, with an eye towards quality and budget, in differing proportions, depending on the project, of course.

BTW,

the gca's I know working in China all say they are trying their hardest to keep the Chinese from making the same mistakes we did, like putting money into square mile clubhouses, but to no avail.  In some ways, I think there is just a learning curve where a country new to golf just needs to find out for themselves what works and what doesn't.  But it is true that China and most of the rest of the world has adopted the CCFAD model of the USA.

Mike,

In truth, golf has never been financially sustainable.  The reason courses are built in housing is to get someone else to pay for them, since courses have rarely been able to cover more than operating costs and a smidge of profit.  They have rarely been able to cover debt service on construction, although for a brief period in the 90's it appeared they coulc.  If debt is $700K a year, then the rising costs of maintenance, say from $500K a year a decade ago to $700K now on average, then how we designed for maintenance isn't as much a problem as the original cost.  And that cost was fueled by low interest rates, good times, etc., which probably artificially raised prices.  And lower rates, golf course sales, etc. have started to bring debt numbers back in line.

Even some of the construction costs can be - or at least were - justified by long term savings.  IF cart paths save 20 days or revenue a year at $3000 per day, then do they pay their share of debt?  With money cheaper, did it make more sense to just spend up front rather than add later at twice the cost?  IF USGA greens last longer and are easier to maintain, is it cheaper to add $70K in gravel costs than rebuld in ten years rather than 20? (A big IF I know)  If more irrigation and sod and drainag got the course open six months earlier, did that extra cost pay off?

Not all increased spending is wasteful if you look at the long term costs, which I think many did.  Of course, IMHO, that added $700K of the big name gca may have paid benefits for the first few years, but doesn't help as much as adding irrigation, sod, cart paths, etc. that would probably be added later at twice the cost.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 10:42:33 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

Re: Golf is no longer sustainable as we know it...
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2010, 10:44:18 AM »
You guys are talking tough, but when you find out that frilly edge bunkers will be the first thing to go, you will be running for the hills!

 ;D

Time to take action.  I propose the GCA 1500 Man March on the Capitol.  Potential chants:

Hey hey ho ho, frilly bunkers have to go!
That's all right, that's okay we're gonna play nine holes today!
Architects united, will not be conceited!
Two bit, four bits, six bits a dollar, let's eliminate rough from the collar.
Hell no, unwatered grass won't grow!
Firm and fast, firm and fast, everybody else can kiss our ______!
We've got Tom Doak yes we do - we've got Tom Doak how 'bout you?

I volunteer to lead the parade:



Mike

btw, can anybody get us on Congressional?






And while you are doing all that marching...ole Bubba that owns Weinerville National Public course is putting concrete sand in his bunkers..mowing his greens with a triplex he bought off of a lease John Deere took back from one of the CCFAD's that feel thru...renting his 5 year old used carts and never letting a $100 bill hit the cash register....there is 12000 of those boys just laughing at all of this stuff...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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