Pat,
The preponderance of AWT's work was in the 20's with a smattering in the late teens.
"Smattering" of courses? He worked on at least 36 courses that we know of between 1911 and 1919.
"Working on" and having the course listed with its opening date are two different things.
AWT's primary body of work is in the 20's, not the teens.[/b]
Pat, you misunderstood me, those 36 werecomplete and opened before 1920.
It would be hard to imagine that AWT ignored the body of CBM's work in the early teens.
How many courses did CBM do between 1905 & 1919? Far fewer than Tilly did.
The number is immaterial.
CBM's body of work was significant in the EARLY teens, and since AWT lived close by, he would have easy access to them.[/b]
Pat, if you take a careful look you'll quickly realize that the number is NOT immaterial. You state that tilly would have seen CBM's work because he lived close by, well the OPPOSITE is true also, especially as Tilly had designed more courses in more places than CBM had. By 1916 Tilly had been throughout the northeast, down to Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and on out to California. Tilly was aware of CBM's work but was not influenced by it.
Actually, based upon your reasoning, it would be hard to imagine that CBM ignored Tilly's work and was not influenced by him.
Only if you IGNORE chronological order of production
And again, Tilly wrote that CBM designed some "very good courses" but that he had a profound disagreement with him in his design philosophy.[/color]
In what year did AWT first visit TOC ?
1895
How extensively did AWT travel in the U.K. ? And, how often (years ?)
1895, 1898 & 1901 staying about 2+ months each time.
The "Sahara" was certainly popularized by # 2 at NGLA.
Tilly designed major fairway bunkers beginning at Shawnee which was designed in 1909 well BEFORE NGLA was finished, opened for play and popular. Actually one can make an argument that many of his contemporaries copied Tilly's bunker style...
In 1909 competitions were being held on NGLA.
Title was taken on NGLA's land in the spring of 1907, with work on the golf course begining immediately thereafter, hence, I don't think the time line, the chronological history, favors your position.
Yes, there was LIMITED play at NGLA in 1909 and more in 1910. There was also limited play on Shawnee in 1910 and it officially opened for regular play several months BEFORE NGLA did. That is the true timeline
In addition, NGLA's arrival was widely anticipated by the golfing world from the begining, thru construction to the official opening, I'm not so sure that Shawnee enjoyed that attention and scrutiny.
Lastly, as Tom MacWood asked, was there a "Sahara" feature in the original Shawnee layout ?
No, there was not. Were there typical Tillinghast "great hazards?" YES. were there features directly copied from what tilly saw in the UK? YES Was anything done at Shawnee that was in imitation of or influenced by CBM? NO.
I think that AWT's body of work is exceptional and find his collection of par 5's to be amongst the very best on any designer ..... ever.
He seemed to have a penchant for good to great par 5's.
And I think that Mackenzie designed fabulous par-5s yet if you'll look back just a few pages there is a thread that was started by Joe Bausch based upon an article that Tilly wrote in which he compared his own philosophy of what makes a proper-length par-5 and why Mackenzie's belief that all 5's (Tilly's words not mine) should be reachable in two shots by the good player and that 480 yards was a proper length was wrong...
I think AWT's par 5's have fared better over time because of their length and elasticity.
In a static world, MacKenzie's par 5's might be comparable, but, as we know, the golf world is far from static.
To me, that seems to be one of the design areas where he distanced himself from other architects