[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

It appears that you've decided to simply ignore what has already been posted:

"To date no one has produced any contemporaneous info on ML..."

Please refer to my earlier post and see the explicit contemporaneous information that I posted which you seem to ignore because it proved your posting about the same material to be incorrect.

From the contemporaneous information that I posted we learned that in 1917 there were 9 holes open for play with a second 9 under construction. We also learned that they measured 3,168 yards in length... Unless you don't consider that "contemporaneous information."

Of course if that's the case you'll have to explain why you were so quick to cite it as a definitive source earlier in this thread...

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Sorry, but I must take exception to your statement, "The Golf Course Guide was published by the Golf Course Guide Co., apparently the company had some relationship to Golf Illustrated because of GI editor was also the editor of GCG. GCG is an excellent source of information because the info came from the clubs themselves."

If that is the case, please explain all of the discrepencies as outlined in my earlier post. Differences ranging from date of establishment to course yardages to even the existence of the course itself. Once again, you posted that the guides from 1917-1930 ALL stated that the course was established in 1917... they didn't as can be seen in the earlier post.

What is clear is that one CAN'T be guaranteed that the information contained in a single edition is accurate. The irony of this is how you are reasoning that it is "an excellent source of information because the info came from the clubs themselves" and yet have argued endlessly on a number of threads that what is contained in club history books can not be trusted...

Finally, if you actually believe that information directly from the clubs is from an excellent source, then explain how the Mountain Lakes history as stated on its website where it clearly says that Seth Raynor designed the course in 1916 (with NO mention of CBM by the way) is NOT an excellent source of information...

[JC Jones]

Tom,

I have it...thanks.

But you are sort of proving the point, right?   If nine holes were already open in Florida by 1917, and another nine already under construction, then didn't the design and construction and grow-in process have to have been sometime prior to 1917, which you seem to want to hold out as some landmark date.   

I'm not sure I understand the significance of that year and I don't read that in Macdonald's words either.   Is there more to the story?

That is very possible, and hopefully someone will be able to produce documentation showing who did what and when.

Can you produce any documentation proving your point? 

[TEPaul]

"Can you produce any documentation proving your point?"


JC:

As you know, you and I have gotten to know each other over the phone due to your interest in certain research subjects and projects. I think you show a really good ability to research and you also show a very fine analytical mind and method for analyzing what you find.

So, let me ask you something; in your post above you asked Tom MacWood if he can produce any documentation proving his point. What do you think his point is you are asking him to prove with the production of some documentation?

It seems to me this thread that MacWood started recently was begun so he could try to determine what Macdonald and Raynor did together between 1910 and 1916 with the thought that might somehow prove that Raynor did not create a solo design until 1917 and after.

This thread was a spin-off from the other and much longer North Shore thread which MacWood eventually steered towards a hopeful discussion of a potential Macdonald involvment in the Mountain Lake project. I suppose his point with that was if there was a Macdonald involvment with ML than that could not be considered a Raynor solo design either particularly since the club records show that project was begun in 1915 and Raynor began his design for that course or began creating the course itself in 1916.

He then produced something called the Golf Course Guide (GCG) that he said indicated ML was not begun until 1917.

Earlier on the North Shore thread he tried to make the point that since ML mentioned Raynor had made plasticine relief models or whatever for ML (or that Mike Sweeney said ML's records say that) that that could not have been possible because, in his opinion, engineers really don't make models like that and therefore if any were done for ML then CBM must have done them and done them for ML thereby exhibiting evidence ofr CBM's involvment with ML.

So, again, JC, what point are you asking for further documentation on, because it's pretty clear over a few threads Tom MacWood has tried to make a number of pretty tenuous points?

And one is probably right to wonder and ask for what purpose has he made these seemingly unconnected and tenuous points? I would say to create a string of tenuous points that makes the point that it somehow looks like Raynor did not do a solo design until 1917 or after.

  

[TEPaul]

JC:

By the way, one of MacWood's points on these threads was that he does not believe that Raynor made plastic relief models. He used the rationale that he does not believe engineers like Raynor do things like that or did things like that, and that therefore Raynor must not have done them for ML and therefore apparently Macdonald must have done them for ML thereby evidencing CBM's involvment in the ML project, even if there is no evidence of CBM's participation from the contemporaneous records of ML.

Apparently MacWood did not read Macdonald's autobiography (Scotland's Gift Golf) on that point carefully enough.

In that book Macdonald said this about Raynor and his work on NGLA:

"....I was so much impressed with his dependability and seriousness I had him make a contour map and later gave him my surveyor's maps which I had brought from Scotland and England, telling him that I wanted those holes laid out faithfully to those maps. For three or four years he worked by my side. He scarcely knew a golf ball from a tennis ball when we first met, and although he never became much of an expert in playing golf, yet the facility which he absorbed the feeling which animates old and enthusiastic golfers to the manner born was truly amazing, eventually qualifying him to discriminate between a really fine hole and and indifferent one.
      When it came to accurate surveying, contours, plastic relief models of the land, draining, piping water in quantity over the entire course, wells and pumps and in many instances clearing land of forests, eradicating the stones, finally resulting in preparing the course for seeding, he had no peer."



The foregoing remarks from CBM from his book clearly indicates Raynor made plastic relief models. Do you think Tom MacWood will acknowledge that fact and that point now or do you think he will just ignore it or try to rationalize it away somehow, as he has done on here so many times before on all kinds of subjects and threads? From many past experiences with him I would bet on the latter even though people can sometimes surprise you and eventually see the obviousness of something and admit to it. Is Tom MacWood capable of being someone like that on here?

I guess we will find out shortly. 

[Tom MacWood]

There is plenty of documentation on Mountain Lake at Mountain Lake and some of us have seen it just like some of us have seen Merion's, Pine Valley's, Myopia's, North Shore's, NGLA's etc, et al.

TEP
If it so plentiful can we then expect you to produce it?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
If it so plentiful can we then expect you to produce it?"


Tom MacWood:

To produce it to whom?

[George_Bahto]

Raynor built models - CBM did not build models

BETWEEN 1910 AND 1916 RAYNOR WAS ALSO INVOLVED at BELLPORT - 5 HOLES AT MISQUAMICUT - GREENPARK NORWOOD (STILL NOT PROVEN BUT I THINK SO FROM MY INFORMATION) - SHINNECOCK RESEDIGN - MAIDSTONE EXPANSION - PROBABLY GARDINERS BAY - BEGIN SHOREACRES - SUNNINGDALE - A DESIGN CONSULT AT HOLLYWOOD - and according to Henry Whigham (who some think a liar or somehow demented) some sort of involvement at Merion Cricket aside from the obvious ones listed above and below

the (NGLA - Piping Rock - Sleepy Hollow -  Wt Sulphur - St Louis - North Shore - Lido - Westhampton - CC Fairfield - (begin landfill) - Greenwich - Blind Brook -  begin Mountain Lake     .... there are a few others still in flux

most people use one date for a course (the opening) - my timeline(s) list the beginning dates to the opening dates and where possible, dates when the club was first contacted for a project


(buy the next book      )

[TEPaul]

"and according to Henry Whigham (who some think a liar or somehow demented) some sort of involvement at Merion Cricket aside from the obvious ones listed above and below"


George:

As you know we here and Merion are well aware of what Whigam said in a periodical eulogy to Raynor involving MCC. We take it for what it is and most certainly are not calling Whigam a liar or demented (he most certainly was never anything like that). It is just a matter of the fact that there is absolutely not a scintilla of evidence from anywhere else that we have ever known or have been aware of (Merion's records, newspapers, periodicals, whatever) that ever mentioned that Raynor was ever at Ardmore, Pennsylvania or ever had anything to do with those two courses.

If he did have some involvment with the designs or creation of either of the Merion courses I find that a bit odd as the club (MCC) was more than grateful to both Macdonald and Whigam for the help and advice they provided the club on the East Course. Matter of fact, Horatio Gates Lloyd even offered a formal resolution at the board level in 1910 thanking them for their help and advice. That was recorded and the club has it. That was another item found in the last year or two by Capers and Morrison, not at Merion GC but at MCC. Interestingly, it had never actually been transported to Merion GC in Ardmore (which was formally created as a separate club in 1941-2) from Merion Cricket Club in Haverford.

Given that, no one needs to be accusing Whigam of being a liar or demented but that is not exactly the kind of material (a periodical eulogy to Raynor) that should be taken as concrete material proof of architectural attribution to Raynor, in my opinion, and in the opinions of others at Merion I know and work with on some of these things.

I believe the absolute best and proper way to handle something like that is to simply take that periodical eulogy to Raynor of Whigam's and just make it part and parcel of the Merion Architectural Archives which at this point is remarkably, impressively and perhaps uniquely comprehensive!

And for this we can thank Merion's two incredibly dedicated and productive historians----eg Capers and Morrison.

[Tom MacWood]

George
Are you sure Raynor was engaged at Shoreacres in 1916? What contemporaneous documentation do you have for Bellport, Gardiners Bay and Mountain Lake?

[George_Bahto]

Shoreacres - 1916 probably the date was when Seth got into serious talks with them - I have the building of Shoreacres from beginning in 1916 - opening 6 years later mostly because of the war

1916-1922 course was completed in 1921 - officially it opened in 1922

I have been there a number of times for presentations and as a guest. great club - great routing - wild property

actor Chris O'Donnell a member

They have a great closing day tourney - Seth Raynor Day - pomp and circumstance for sure

[Bill_McBride]

Interesting about East Lake and CBM.  I thought it was Bendelow and Ross and then Ross remodeled Bendelow's original 18.

Bob Crosby knows all about East Lake, perhaps he'll chime in.

Tom MacWood, what's the basis of your statement that CBM consulted at East Lake?  Did he make a trip down to play?  Did he and Ross ever consult with each other?

I don't know if Ross and CBM ever collaborated. The source was a little blurb is Golf Magazine.

East Lake was originally designed by Bendelow and then redesigned by Barker and George Adair, and then Ross added bunkers, followed by CBM in 1916, after that I'm not sure. I don't know why CBM was in Atlanta. George Adair was very well connected in golfing circles, and I know he made trip East to study architectural developments, including the NGLA. So if I was to guess I'd say Adair had something to do with CBM advising.

Tom, two courses at East Lake.

[Tom MacWood]

George
What documentation do you have that Raynor was involved at Shoreacres in 1916?

Bill
The second 18 was added in the mid-20s.

[Patrick_Mucci]

1910 - NGLA
1911 - Sleepy Hollow, Piping Rock, Merion
1912 - St. Louis, Greenbriar
1913 -
1914 - East Lake, Lido
1915 - Islip, CC of Fairfield, Westhampton, North Shore
1916 - Blind Brook, Shinnecock Hills, Greenwich

The bold courses all have confirmed CBM involvement. Contemporaneous reports at Westhampton have Barker designing and Raynor constructing the course.  That leaves CC of Fairfield, and I have not seen any contemporaneous report that the course was solo Raynor job or a solo CBM job, I suspect, like the others, CBM was involved. If that is the case I don't think there is any doubt what CBM was referring to when he said Raynor became a post graduate in 1917.

Tom,

I'd like to review the contemporaneous reports regarding Barker's involvement.

It's not infrequent that a report indicates one architect will be hired, when another is awarded the job.

Having played Westhampton dozens upon dozens of times, I must say it reeks of CBM/SR

We also know, that in the ultimate, despite what the plans say, courses are often constructed quite differently from those plans/blueprints/fielddrawings.

Nowhere was this more apparent than at Aronomink, where you discovered that the course was NOT built to the published plans/blueprints/fieldnotes.

From my playing experience at Westhampton, it would appear that Raynor built it to HIS inclination.

Remember, according to CBM, Raynor was a master at reading plans, hence, I don't think he was capable of a massive misinterpretation.

I'd have to see a good deal of supporting documentation before I believe that anyone other than Raynor or Raynor/CBM designed Westhampton

[Tom MacWood]

This is what I have on Westhampton.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I wonder what the last phrase/incomplete sentence was intended to mean?

[TEPaul]

"I wonder what the last phrase/incomplete sentence was intended to mean?"


Jeffrey:

Good question. That is why I would prefer not to rely on those kinds of periodical or newspaper accounts but rather on the administrative records of the club during the design and construction of the course. That, of course, is assuming they still exist which in every case of course they don't or don't to some degree and for various reasons, unfortunately.

But if they do exist comprehensively and completely, which is not that uncommon, I think their research and analysis value trumps periodical and newspaper accounts every time. At least that has been my experience.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a map attributed to Raynor, although there is no name on it, nor is it dated. And below that is the golf course today, the course as built. There are a number of differences. The bunkering on the course as built is more representative of Barker (and in the GCGC style) - the multiple small bunkers. I'm not convinced the map is Raynor's. I think it is possible the map is Bank's and was a redesign plan never fully executed.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

The American Golf Course Guide was an somewhat annual book edited at first by P.C. Pulver and first pubished in 1916. Any golf course in America could be listed in it and the information it contained was very basic. It was basically a big book of advertising and if the club decided not to pay for the privilege their information was removed. The source of the information is never explained but is assumed that it came directly from the club itself.

That's the good news. The bad news is that it is a completely unreliable source for information for any serious researcher to use and Mountain Lake is a CLASSIC example of why. Shown below is information from every listing for Mountain Lake from the years 1917-1931. Tom Macwood wrote, "According to the Golf Course Guide (1917 through 1930) the golf club was founded in 1917."

Tom, you are WRONG! You should have looked them up and you would have found the following information:

YEAR                    ESTABLISHED                   HOLES                          LENGTH
1917                          1917             9/w9 under construction               3,168
1920                          1915             9/w9 under construction               3,168
1921                          1917                             18                              6,580
1922                          1915                             18                              6,166  
1923                          1917                             18                              6,166
1925                          1917                             18                              6,166  
1926                          1917                             18                              6,166  
1927                          1917                             18                              6,166
1928                          1917                             18                              6,166
1929                          1917                             18                              6,166  
1930-31                                      NO LONGER LISTED!

Depending on WHICH YEAR you read, it was established in EITHER 1915 OR 1917, had 9 holes or 18, and went from 3,168 to 6,580 to 6,166 yards in just over two years! One also might draw the conclusion that the club no longer existed from 1930 onward since it was not listed in the 1930-31 issue!

Actually, the information presented SUPPORTS exactly what the Mountain Lake website says, that in 1916 the course was DESIGNED by Seth Raynor. It DOESN'T say that it was open for play. The 1917 book indicates that the course was open for play in 1917 but was not completed. the 1920 book gives the same information, but I believe is suspect and is an example of the problem of relying too heavily on these annuals for detailed information. I would expect that the club finished the second 9 holes before then and that the information from the previous listing under "Holes" was carried forward without correction.

Phil

Thanks for that. Just for purposes of getting it is one place. Here is the passage I wrote based on the old club history:

"According to John Caldwell, author of ‘Mountain Lake’ in 1986, Raynor came to Florida for the first time in his life in the Spring of 1915, where he met by Fred Olmstead and they toured the Belleaire Hotel’s two 18 hole golf courses in Clearwater, Florida. Over at Mountain Lake, Olmstead and Raynor walked the projected course often together, and at night Raynor would sit down with Olmstead’s contour map to piece the course together. By mid-May of 1915, Raynor and Olmstead had the course design incorporated into the overall plan. Models were then built by Raynor and sent from Southampton where holes 1-6 and current 16-18 were completed by December of 1916. As funding was tight, the course played as 9 holes until May of 1920 when Ruth wrote Raynor that it was time to complete the second 9 holes. On October 2, 1920, Ruth played the first 18 hole round at Mountain Lake. The basic design has been altered from time to time. However the first major changes were made by Charles Banks in 1929 and again later by Olmstead Brothers based on a report written in 1952."

[Tom MacWood]

The blurb I have is directly from notes given to me by Bill Quirin who at that time was assembling infor mation for his great book(s).

"To design its new golf the course the club turned to Seth Raynor, a native of Southampton who had been Charles Blair Macdonald's engineer at The National and Piping Rock, and was just beginning to design courses on his own. Raynor, assisted by former Garden City Golf Club professional H. H. Barker, responded with a 6171-yard layout that incorporated architectural ideas based on outstanding holes in the British Islas. Westhampton, like most courses designed by Macdonald and or Raynor, had a "Redan," a "Short," and a "Biarritz."

I took this from another recent thread. So evidently I'm not the only one who found a Barker connection at WCC. For whatever reason George chose not to mention Barker's involvement in his book. The Westhampton club history has no mention of Barker either.

[Tom MacWood]

"According to John Caldwell, author of ‘Mountain Lake’ in 1986, Raynor came to Florida for the first time in his life in the Spring of 1915, where he met by Fred Olmstead and they toured the Belleaire Hotel’s two 18 hole golf courses in Clearwater, Florida. Over at Mountain Lake, Olmstead and Raynor walked the projected course often together, and at night Raynor would sit down with Olmstead’s contour map to piece the course together. By mid-May of 1915, Raynor and Olmstead had the course design incorporated into the overall plan. Models were then built by Raynor and sent from Southampton where holes 1-6 and current 16-18 were completed by December of 1916. As funding was tight, the course played as 9 holes until May of 1920 when Ruth wrote Raynor that it was time to complete the second 9 holes. On October 2, 1920, Ruth played the first 18 hole round at Mountain Lake. The basic design has been altered from time to time. However the first major changes were made by Charles Banks in 1929 and again later by Olmstead Brothers based on a report written in 1952."

Mike
Is the part about Raynor at night and Olmsted & Raynor often walking the course together a bit of artistic license on your part or is that documented somewhere? George wrote something very similar.

[Mike Sweeney]

I have never had a copy of the 1986 history as it is out of print. From memory I photocopied a few sections on a trip and tend to plagiarize  more than be creative.

[TEPaul]

I would assume the Westhampton club records must have something in them about HH Barker's involvement with the course, or perhaps they have a copy of the article that appeared on here about a Barker connection with Westhampton. If they don't apparently Bill Quirin found it on his own and put it into his notes for his book on the clubs of the MGA, and George Bahto got it thereby from him (as he said above).

Bill Quirin is cooperative and has been a very good collaborator with his collected research and information with some of us doing additional research on some of his former subjects. In the past he's been most cooperative with me about his book and research on The Creek Club, recently on North Shore GC and also on his book(s) on the history of The Lesley Cup of which I am a part and plan to continue to research the history of that subject.

In any case, Barker's name does not appear in the Westhampton write-up in my copy of the "Golf Clubs of the MGA."

Didn't Barker return to England at the beginning of WW1 in Europe to enlist? I also seem to recall an article somewhere which mentioned Barker had apparently come to feel somewhat disrespected over here for some reason.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

The 15th hole appears to be missing from the schematic.

In what newspaper/magazine did your article appear ?
And what's the date of the article.

The article seems to state that the course is under construction, so I don't know how the author of the article can come to a conclusion relative to the quality of the golf course.

There was another course adjacent to Westhampton, Oneck I believe.
Is it possible the article is describing Oneck, which was located in Westhampton Beach ?
In addition, Oneck was called "The Westhampton Country Club"
And, it was on the Ocean with two holes requiring a carry over an inlet.
In the schematic, Westhampton does NOT have any holes requiring a carry over an inlet.

C&W list Westhampton as a 1914 design

Banks did not join Raynor until 1921, 6 to 7 years after Westhampton was crafted.

By then, the 15th hole was "in play", hence it's doubtful it would be omitted or difficult to discern on the schematic

Barker returned to the UK in 1915, so getting the dates of the article, date construction began at Westhampton has to help solve the mystery.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Oneck Point golf course was begun by Banks toward the end of the decade of the 1920s and it was abandoned in 1933 due to the economic depression. It was to the south of the Westhampton GC course on the other side of the creek and it had an impressive run of coastline. It was one helluva challenging design apparently as a 6,500+ par 70.

(According to Bill Quirin's "The Golf Club of the MGA" and Dan Wexler's "Lost Links").

Charles Banks would die in 1931 at the age of 48.

There is something a bit spooky and a bit unsettling about the short life-spans of some of the significant architects of that era. Crump would die at 46, Hugh Wilson at 45, Charles Banks at 48, Seth Raynor at 51, Howard Toomey in 1933 age not exact but fairly young, and William Flynn at 55.

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