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TEPaul

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #175 on: April 21, 2010, 04:28:24 PM »
PeterP:

Macdonald didn't even come close to saying or implying Raynor went out on his own in 1917. It seems like only Tom MacWood is interpreting it that way.

What Macdonald said about 1917 was that Raynor did about 100-150 courses and other rework projects AFTER 1917 that Macdonald said HE HAD NEVER SEEN! He most definitely did not say that Raynor had NOT done some projects on his own BEFORE 1917. If Raynor had done some projects on his own BEFORE 1917 without Macdonald all Macdonald was saying is he HAD SEEN them (even if he wasn't involved with them with Raynor).

Macdonald mentioned that there were six more projects that he did with Raynor AFTER 1917 that he said he gave his personal attention to. He listed those six courses.

I transcribed this whole section out of Macdonald's book and put it on here. I think it's on the other thread. I'll see if I can find it for you and you can make your own interpretation on what it says and means.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 04:35:49 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #176 on: April 21, 2010, 09:45:15 PM »
So let me get this straight...

You find two sources of information that you think are excellent (The Golf Course Guide and a schematic of Westhampton), upon which you base your theories.  Then, both are refuted and shown to be inaccurate....

Isn't the next logical step to acknowledge that perhaps your conjecture is therefore unfounded?  

What theory? You've already identified one phantom theory.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #177 on: April 21, 2010, 09:49:24 PM »
There was information in the minutes that suggested there was a collaboration between Raynor, White and possibly CBM.

Really?  What information is that?

You don't play stupid, naive, and forgetful well.


"The following represent my findings concerning attribution of the golf course from the Minutes of North Shore CC (hereinafter “the Club”) from May 13, 1914 onward:

1.   On November 5, 1914, the Club authorized the sum of $400.00 to hire Seth Raynor in an advisory capacity for possible improvement of the existing course on the property.
2.   On November 12, 1914, the Club hired Robert White, at $1200.00 per year, to begin on December 1, 1914, with an option to terminate after 6 months with 30 days notice. His duties were: To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct.
3.   On December 23, 1914, the Club noted that a contract with White, pursuant to the action of the previous meeting of the Board, had been made, that progress had been made on the plan for a new golf course, taking the sense of the Board as to the possible use of the woods at the easterly end of the club property as part of such course. An estimate for the upkeep of the course was made in the amount of $12,00.00 per year.
4.   On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work.
5.   On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own.
6.   On May 25, 1915, the Greens Committee reported to the Board that progress is being made on the course construction.
7.   On June 22, 1915, the Greens Committee reported that favorable progress has been made on the rebuilding of the course showing a considerable saving as the work so far completed as compared with the original estimates.
8.   On December 28, 1915, it was noted that golf course should be playable by Decoration Day 1916.
9.   On February 29, 1916, it was noted that a letter from Raynor was referred to the Building Committee.
10.   On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee. He went on to state that although the Board appropriated $37,00.00 for the work, the work will not exceed $32,000.00.
11.   On June 27, 1916, the Greens Committee was authorized to invite newspapermen to play the course during the summer if the course was in good condition.
12.   On February 18, 1918, at a Special Meeting of the Board, the Greens Committee was authorized to engage Robert White as Consulting Expert at $50 monthly for not less than 4 visits. It was noted that this motion was carried with 4 negative votes"

Tom MacWood

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #178 on: April 21, 2010, 10:05:56 PM »
Tom M  (and/or others) -

Setting aside for a moment the debate about whether CBM (in his book) was implying that 1917 was a significant turning point for Raynor, my questions is: why should WE think 1917 was a turning point? Wasn't Macdonald still consulting with Raynor as late as  1920-21, when Tailer's "Ocean" course in Newport was built? And wasn't CBM's name prominently linked with that course at the time?

Peter


Clearly 1917 was a significant date for CBM/Raynor. I have seen him mentioned with Raynor and TS Tailer at Tailer's Ocean Links. I don't know why he did not mention it, some possible explanations - he was not involved; he simply forgot it; it was conceived in 1917.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #179 on: April 21, 2010, 10:15:41 PM »
From the Annual Report of the President of the North Shore Country Club, March 11th, 1917

Fellow members of the NORTH SHORE COUNTRY CLUB

The year which is past has not been marked by any startling new developments, unless we should designate in that matter the completion of the plan for the improvement of our links.

I know that I am only voicing the sentiment of all our members in expressinggratification at the result accomplished, which has, at one bound, placed us in line with the golf links recognized as the best in the United States. We, of course, were greatly favored in the matter by the remarkable natural advantages offered by our land, but no results like those accomplished could have been achieved without the genius of those mainly responsible namely: Mr. Seth J. Raynor, Mr C.B. McDonald and Mr. Robert White.[/color][/size]

TEPaul

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #180 on: April 21, 2010, 11:28:19 PM »
Quote from: PPallotta on Today at 02:05:58 PM
"Tom M  (and/or others) -

Setting aside for a moment the debate about whether CBM (in his book) was implying that 1917 was a significant turning point for Raynor, my questions is: why should WE think 1917 was a turning point? Wasn't Macdonald still consulting with Raynor as late as  1920-21, when Tailer's "Ocean" course in Newport was built? And wasn't CBM's name prominently linked with that course at the time?

Peter


Tom MacWood said:
"Clearly 1917 was a significant date for CBM/Raynor. I have seen him mentioned with Raynor and TS Tailer at Tailer's Ocean Links. I don't know why he did not mention it, some possible explanations - he was not involved; he simply forgot it; it was conceived in 1917."





T. Suffern Tailer's Ocean Links was designed in 1921, not 1917. Macdonald and Raynor did it.

TEPaul

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #181 on: April 21, 2010, 11:33:28 PM »
Here is a remark from Post #182:



"The following represent my findings concerning attribution of the golf course from the Minutes of North Shore CC (hereinafter “the Club”) from May 13, 1914 onward:"


Those represent WHOSE FINDING Tom MacWood?  ;)


Peter Pallotta

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #182 on: April 22, 2010, 01:57:01 AM »
Tom M -
I didn't quote from the 1921 article that makes clear CBM's extensive involvement (as Raynor's consultant) in the creation of Ocean Links because I was sure that you knew  about it already. But your answer makes me think that maybe you haven't seen the article. I will post the links and some snippets tomorrow. It's an in depth and hole by hole description of the course as of opening day in July 1921 (after a two year construction period) with each hole described as a template, ie in terms of the great holes on which they were based. CBM played the course on opening day and explained each hole to the onlookers.
Peter

Tom MacWood

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #183 on: April 22, 2010, 06:01:26 AM »
Peter
The Ocean Links opened for play in 1920 or 1921, but what year did the project begin? I don't know the answer. The other possibilities are he forgot about the course or he was not really involved. TEP always says you can't believe what you read in newspapers and magazines. By the way I believe he was involved.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 06:37:20 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #184 on: April 22, 2010, 08:02:49 AM »
By the way, it is not very clear what kind of criteria Macdonald used to credit Raynor (or himself) with architectural attribution but by the end of 1921 he credited Raynor with some 150 golf courses in the previous app. fourteen years. That would work out to about a dozen courses a year if you take out at least the eighteen months from the middle of 1917 to the end of 1918 during which very little was being done with golf or golf projects anywhere.

Also, Macdonald's own use of the term "laid out" is quite interesting and obviously instructive to our understanding of how that term was used back then.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 08:05:04 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #185 on: April 22, 2010, 08:15:11 AM »
Tom M, Tom P - I don’t want to muck up this thread with extraneous material, but since I promised it: snippets from two articles from 1921, both from soon after the course's official opening on July 10, 1921 -- a longer more detailed article and a shorter one. Links attached below. From the shorter article that also includes photos/paintings:  

"By those who have seen this new course it is being talked of as the latest and greatest Macdonald-Raynor creation—Seth J. Raynor having had the privilege of consulting with the former amateur champion. By working at top speed under the supervision of their superintendents, Arthur T. Arnold, William Edward and Rocco Nocco, the course has been constructed in less than two years—which is an achievement in itself, but was only possible because Mr. Tailer co-operated in every way he could. An instance of this might be cited here because in many ways it was a novel departure in golf course construction. During last winter, work was maintained by keeping the earth loose at all times, dynamite being used in sufficient quantities and at timely intervals. In building it was found that four or five of the great holes at St. Andrews, North Berwick and other important links were naturally suited for the layout and as a result of copying them, the course is a composite series of the world's best golfing holes, including besides those pictured here the fifth at Garden City, the Redan at North Berwick, the first at the National Links, the sixth at the National, the seventeenth at Piping Rock, the eleventh at St. Andrews, the eighth at Piping Rock, the Road Hole at St. Andrews and Raynor's Prize Dogleg. A particular feature which should please all good golfers is the fact that three of the greens are right on the edge of the water".  

From the longer article (that goes on provide a hole by hole description. I remembered it saying that CBM walked the onlookers through each hole, but I was wrong -- he played the course, though, on opening day July 10, 1921):  
 
"... All of these considerations are part and parcel of the new development, as will appear, of the new Ocean Links, for this is the name given the new nine hole course hard by the old Newport Country Club course. Charles B. MacDonald, T. Suffern Tailer and Seth J. Raynor are the principal figures in the new creation...."

"...A few years ago, while a guest of Mr.Tailer at Newport, Mr. MacDonald, with his host, took a casual stroll over the ground that is now the new Ocean Links. The possibilities of the terrain as a high-class golf layout appealed to him at once, and he so informed Mr. Tailer. He pointed out that nature had made unusually apt provisions for close approximations at reproducing some of the finest golf holes in the world. Minutely detailed reproductions are very rarely, if indeed ever possible, but here was the opportunity for several very finely conceived counterparts. From this beginning sprung the new course. Mr. MacDonald agreed to undertake the planning of the new creation, provided some capable man was called in to assist and carry out his plans. Enter Mr. Raynor. With this combination and the staff which served under them, the work was taken up under the support of Mr. Tailer."
 
www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1921/gi154d.pdf
www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1921/ag2416p.pdf -
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 09:04:12 AM by PPallotta »

TEPaul

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #186 on: April 22, 2010, 08:27:54 AM »
PeterP

Rocco Nocco??!!!!

Are you serious??

That's the coolest name I've ever heard!

Maybe he was actually the "Father" or at the very least the "Guide" of the Golden Age of Golf Course Architecture and he and his reputation has been seriously minimized all these years for some reason!  ;)

He certainly was in the right place as at that time Newport was unquestionably the greatest example of conspicious extravagence perhaps in one one single place in American history.

I think we should look into whether The Golden Age of Golf Architecture should be more correctly and accurately labeled "The Rocco Nocco Age of Golf Architecture." Don't you think its ring is far superior to "Arts and Crafts Golf Architecture" or even the "Golden Age of Golf Architecture?"
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 08:31:07 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #187 on: April 22, 2010, 08:53:27 AM »
PeterP:

Those are wonderful articles and add a lot of detail to the life and times of CBM and Raynor. Just some of the names alone in the larger article are very indicative-----eg Conde Nast, Crocker and Bert Walker. Bert Walker, by the way, was George Herbert Walker, Pres. #41's (George Herbert Walker Bush) favorite uncle ("Uncle Bert") and his primary career supporter and financier, mostly via that important financial engine of the times, Brown Brothers, Harriman.

By the way, ironically and conincidentally, those articles and I think most of the run of those magazines have been prominently displayed and all beautifully leather bound on the shelves of Piping Rock's library for many years.

Thanks so much for producing them on here Great stuff!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 08:57:27 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #188 on: April 22, 2010, 09:11:51 AM »
"That's the coolest name I've ever heard!" Ha, ha. Yeah, Tom, I figure he probably handled the dynamite.

"Hey, you want to blow something up, you call Rocco. That's me, Rocco. Don't worry about nothing, I'll take care of everything.  I'll blow up anything you want, I don't give a f-ck.  Last time, last year, I blew up something over there, you know, around the corner over there, and one of the big-shots comes over and says 'Hey Rocco, that looks just like a hole from Saint Andrews now.'   I tell him, 'So what, what the  f-ck do I care?' You know what I mean? That's all it takes to make a golf hole? Good, make all your golf holes then, what do I care? Make a million of them - it's not like I'm gonna be playing the stupid game. Are you kidding me - walking around like a jerk-off in some bad slacks, sticks in my hand, 'Oh, tally-ho, fine shot old chap!'  F-ck that sh-t!  Give me the ponies anytime, you know what I mean? Come on, get serious - what do I know about Saint Andrews? Who the hell is Saint Andrews anyway that they gotta go name a golf course after him? Some English saint, right? Yeah, naturally. Listen, for my money, you wanna name a golf course, name it after a good saint, a big saint - you know, Saint Peter, Saint Paul, one of the big guys. Look, you didn't actually die to become a saint, you ain't a saint in my books. You gotta die, you gotta actually take the hit -- otherwise they'd be making everyone a saint! But anyway, what the f-uck am I talking about -- you wanna blow something up, you tell me where and when and you pay me the money and I'll make all the f-cking Saint Andrews holes you want...."

Yes, Tom - neat articles aren't they. You're welcome.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 09:14:58 AM by PPallotta »

TEPaul

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #189 on: April 22, 2010, 09:17:52 AM »
You know from the description of it that seventh hole sounds like a fascinating conceptual wrinkle on a famous architectural hole or principle----Alps! It's only 250+ yards long so it sounds like a half par. It actually sounds like the original "Alps" hole at Myopia that preceded it by about twenty five years and a hole that CBM was apparently familiar with.

TEPaul

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #190 on: April 22, 2010, 09:25:16 AM »
PeterP:

Your Rocco Nocco quotation has got to be one of the all time best and funniest things I have ever seen on this website. You've got quite the imagination and stylistic expression that probably has a good deal of historic truth to it.

I can just see Rocco Nocco walking home at the end of the day with a couple of sticks of dynamite poking out of his back pocket mumbling to himself---"Who da f--cka are all dose pompous peacocks anyways?"


YOU'RE BACK!!   ;)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 09:33:29 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #191 on: April 22, 2010, 09:33:57 AM »
"That's the coolest name I've ever heard!" Ha, ha. Yeah, Tom, I figure he probably handled the dynamite.

"Hey, you want to blow something up, you call Rocco. That's me, Rocco. Don't worry about nothing, I'll take care of everything.  I'll blow up anything you want, I don't give a f-ck.  Last time, last year, I blew up something over there, you know, around the corner over there, and one of the big-shots comes over and says 'Hey Rocco, that looks just like a hole from Saint Andrews now.'   I tell him, 'So what, what the  f-ck do I care?' You know what I mean? That's all it takes to make a golf hole? Good, make all your golf holes then, what do I care? Make a million of them - isaint, you ain't a saint in my books. You gotta die, you gotta actually take the hit -- otherwise they'd be making everyone a saint! But anyway, what the f-uck am I talking about -- you wanna blow something up, you tell me where and when and you pay me the money and I'll make all the f-cking Saint Andrews holes you want...."

Yes, Tom - neat articles aren't they. You're welcome.

Peter


I hereby nominate this post as the best ever on GCA.

Priceless
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 09:35:47 AM by Mike_Cirba »

George_Bahto

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #192 on: April 22, 2010, 10:00:18 AM »
Tony Pioppi and I hae been laughing about the great Rpccp Nocco for years.

Ocean Links is a great story


T S Tailer made up his mind to build the course in the fall. Raynor and Macdonald told him, great we’ll start in the spring

Tailer (wadda guy) got Raynor to get all his guys (including Rocco) up to Newport and they blasted the frozen ground all winter into workable condition to expedite the course building.
Macdonald / Raynor holes at         Ocean Links      Course of T. Suffern Tailer
1919 - 1921                    Newport, RI      
 
Hole 1.  310 yards, bears a close resemblance to the 5th at Garden City Golf Club.  A long drive accurately placed to the right of the fairway leaves a par 4 for the hole quite easy, but a tee shot that lands to the left, leaves a very difficult approach, and to reach the rough on the left from the tee, just about stifles any hopes of a par for the hole.

Hole 2.  which is 545 yards and almost a counterpart of the "Long" - 6th at Shore Acres, Lake Forest, Illinois. The putting green is especially spacious,  offering a good target for a long approach, but bunkers to the right and left mean trouble for whoever gets off line very much. A rather unusual feature of this hole is the fact that Raynor rates this hole as a par 6, a rating which will promptly provoke an argument, until it is explained that a strong wind in from the ocean is always against the player.

Hole 3. 19l yards bears the earmark of all Macdonald courses, being a copy of the famous "Redan" hole at North Berwick, Scotland which is appraised as "one of the pearls of golf”. This type of hole has been so widely copied in varying degrees of success that any detailed description is hardly worth while here. In this particular case, however, it may be added that the impression a player gathers from surveying this task the first time he mounts the tee, is that to overplay means that his ball will land in the Atlantic Ocean, which appears to well up just beyond.

Hole 4.  305yards, runs parallel to Ocean drive. The fairway and putting green are liberally trapped and in general appearance and method of play the hole is quite similar to the #1 Hole at The National (Golf) Links of America. On this hole the landscape gardener has been drawn into the picture. Along the fence skirting the drive thousands of Japanese roses have been planted, thereby screening the hole completely from the drive.
      
Hole 5. 315 yards is similar to the Cape hole at Lido Beach. There is a hill to be carried on the second shot to the green, which is blind. Since it is impossible for players coming up from behind to see whether or not the match ahead has cleared the green, there is a bell at the green to be rung by players on finishing the hole. It is said one can tell how well the match ahead fared by the method employed in ringing this bell. A rigorous ringing usually signifies a few missed putts.

Hole 6. 140 yards is fashioned pretty much after the 6th at The National (the "Short) and the 17th at Piping Rock.  Traps (bunkers) clustered about the green placing keen importance on a well judged and well directed shot.
      
Hole 7. 258 yards may readily acquire the reputation of being the most maligned golf hole in America and although it is quite short, the conditions of play will discourage many. The architects have not been satisfied with what nature did in this case, and by way of helping out have dumped no less than 6,000 loads of earth to form veritable little mountain to be carried~from the tee. Once over that mound and a trap (bunker) just beyond, the going is fairly easy. Also a wind at one's back always helps. The 11th at St. Andrews is very much like this one (the green).

Hole 8. 510 yards strongly resembles the 17th at St. Andrews, known as the Road Hole and also as the graveyard of more championship hopes probably than any other golf hole in the world.

Hole 9. 460 yards is the pride of Architect Raynor. It is a "dog leg" affair and patterned after the model with which he won a prize in a well known golf architectural contest a few years since. It is customary to refer to those golf holes that bend to right or left as "dog-leg" holes, but this one could be properly be designated as a "fish hook" hole. This is a double turn to the right, and the hole bears the distinction of being rated a par 4 and a bogey 5. If on is a smiter after the fashion of Abe Mitchell and a few others equaling of approaching his stripe, then he may reach the green in two shots.  The short player will never get there in under four (1921)
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #193 on: April 22, 2010, 10:04:36 AM »
also interesting was this note forwqarded thru Tony from Barclay Douglas, former pres of newport CC:

Raynor was paid for a 500 for a proposal (rejected) ..

"I was most interested in the piece on the T. S. Tailer's "Ocean Links."  In the piece you mentioned the Governors of NCC did not choose Seth Raynor because of political reason, Raynor doing the Ocean Links.  I recently found a bill from Raynor ($500) for work he did at Newport. Just in the past few weeks I read some old Club's minutes.  It stated they chose Tillinghast rather than Raynor because Raynor plan was too cramped." (Barclay D)
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tom MacWood

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #194 on: April 22, 2010, 10:47:38 AM »
Dave
You've obviously not been following the North Shore thread.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #195 on: April 22, 2010, 10:51:19 AM »
It looks like the land for the golf course was purchased in 1911.

George_Bahto

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #196 on: April 22, 2010, 11:38:46 AM »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tom MacWood

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #197 on: April 22, 2010, 12:28:57 PM »
Dave
You've obviously not been following the North Shore thread.

Nice deflection, Tom...

Anyway, since you asked:  yes, I have been following the North Shore thread.  

What would have been so hard about just saying "No, I haven't seen the actual minutes"?  Why deflect by responding to a question only with another question?

 

Like I said you've obviously not been following the NS thread otherwise you would not continue to make an idiot of yourself.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #198 on: April 22, 2010, 02:07:07 PM »
There is a wonderful chapter on Ocean Links in the out-of-print "To the Nines."

Tailer purchased the land over a number of years while trying in unsuccessfully trying to convince the Newport membership upgrade their Donald Ross layout that included what is now the driving range, an area that turns to swamp with just a little rain.

Raynor, as proven by a letter in club archives, did substantial work at Misquamicut in 1914.

Rocco Nocco Rules!

Anthony

George_Bahto

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Re: Macdonald and/or Raynor 1910-1916
« Reply #199 on: April 22, 2010, 02:41:44 PM »
Tony, remember that crazy picture I sent you about Rocco Nocco? I can't find it ...... it was the one with the troll-face speaking in broken english
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson