The problem with Subtlety - Old Mac

[Jed Rammell]

For the record, don't mistake my analysis of the hole as admiration. Its cost me more money than my wife.

[John Moore II]

For the record, don't mistake my analysis of the hole as admiration. Its cost me more money than my wife.

Thats a lot of money. How did you manage to lose that much? (Check your PM's, top right corner of the screen)


Now, to try and get back on track....
Often times subtlety can be lost on those who either don't pay close attention or don't play a course enough, this has been said. But, what might be a key, how do you go about crafting subtle in a way that is appealing to the majority of golfers. Which of the Doak 10's have a large amount of subtle design (I honestly don't know, I've never played any of them)? And on that same line, how many of them appeal to the majority of average golfers? All, some, only a few??

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

I too enjoy the discussions/debates.

Being challenged makes you reflect more on your position and it causes you to analyze the other position/s.

That contributes to the learning process.

Width does have inherent constraints, with cost to maintain being one of them.
I can't see a course maintaining wide fairways when width doesn't enhance the strategy and play of the hole.

But, width seems to embrace and be welcomed by most, if not all golfers.
It relaxes the demands on the mid to high to very high handicap golfer, and that contributes to a presentation that's an enjoyable challenge.

As Tom Doak stated, golfers want to enjoy the challenge, and in terms of fostering enjoyment for the mid to high to very high golfer, width may be the best medicine.
 

[John Moore II]

Pat-Could you offer up an answer to my most recent question about which Doak 10's have a large amount of subtle design features and how this relates to the enjoyment of the course for the general public? (I ask you because I have a strong feeling you've played at least 5-6 of the 9)

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

I'll try to get to that tomorrow night before the big game.

A subtle feature at Hidden Creek, which I pointed out to TEPaul, which also exists on the 2nd hole at NGLA, and is one of my favorites, is the almost imperceptable rise at the front of the green.

This often undetected feature prevents marginal, miscalculated or mis-hit shots from gaining access to the putting surface.

It seems to benefit surface drainage, but, in terms of playability it often thwarts the golfer trying to squeeze an approach or recovery shot between a forward hole location and the begining of the green.

When I first pointed it out to TEPaul, he denied its existance, but, with some research on his own he came to conclude that the feature did in fact exist, on most of the holes.

The feature was crafted so subtlely, that it was not only undetected by a rather astute observer, but, even when it was identified, he had trouble recalling the feature.  I would deem that "subtle"

Where it works spectacularly to fool the golfer is on what appears to be downhill shots, like the approach to the 2nd greens at NGLA and Hidden Creek.

Often a golfer will play short in order to get to a front or mid hole location.

Shots hit 5 yards short will release and go toward the hole, but, shots hit just 1-3 yards short will be stopped by the almost imperceptable incline at the front of the green.

I would venture to say that golfers who have played Hidden Creek 50 times, have yet to discover that "subtle" feature.

I suspect that Hidden Creek isn't the first course that C&C introduced that feature.

[Tom_Doak]

JKM:

There are a dozen 10's in The Confidential Guide:

National, Shinnecock, Merion, Pine Valley, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point, Royal Melbourne, Ballybunion, Dornoch, St. Andrews, and Muirfield.

I would submit that all of those have a lot of subtle features.  But, #2 is probably the only one of the twelve that has little in the way of dramatic features to complement the subtlety.

[John Moore II]

JKM:

There are a dozen 10's in The Confidential Guide:

National, Shinnecock, Merion, Pine Valley, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point, Royal Melbourne, Ballybunion, Dornoch, St. Andrews, and Muirfield.

I would submit that all of those have a lot of subtle features.  But, #2 is probably the only one of the twelve that has little in the way of dramatic features to complement the subtlety.

Outstanding. How do you think the average golfer would take all those subtle features on those 12 courses though? Would these courses be polarizing like you think Old Mac may be?

[John Moore II]

Sorry to double post, but I have another question about Old Mac, not entirely relating to subtlety, but somewhat.

Tom Doak-On the greens, with them being so large, how did you irrigate them? Did you have to resort to irrigation heads in the playing surface? I got to thinking about that today while recalling my round at Thanksgiving Point where they had several greens large enough that they required heads within the playing surface. Thanks.