Philly's Public "Dream 18"

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe Logan picks his public "Dream 18" with the help of Jeff Silverman and Mike Cirba, the denizen of golfclubatlas.com !!!

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20100329_Picking_the_perfect_18_holes.html

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/golf/Logans_Public_Dream_18.html

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I quickly reviewed the list -- the 17th at The Architect's Club ?

How come they forgot the better 9th hole there ?

Also, the listing spreads way south to the greater Baltimore area with Bulle Rock ?

Also, no hole from Morgan Hill ? Also, the par-4 9th at Lederach? There are better holes to choose from there in my mind.

Joe L needs to get in the field a bit more.

[Sean Leary]

Isn't this like dreaming in PG rather than XXX?

[Michael Blake]

There can't be many more places in the U.S. where the disparity between the very good private courses and the very good public courses is so vast.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I was surprised at the inclusion of the 17th at Architect's Club. It's a hike from Philly to get there as is Iron Valley. My suggestion to Joe about the 13th at Jeffersonville panned out. I suggested the 17th at Lederach but Joe chose the 9th.

Here's a better pic of the 13th at Jeffersonville:

[Michael Huber]

The 13th or 14th or whatever at Bella Vista makes me want to barf.  Blech.

[Matt_Ward]

Truly, the listing is more Mid-Atlantic than within the close confines of Center City.

Tell us plenty that Phila public golf needs to widen the net THAT far to get a final sampling of candidates.

[Bob Harris]

I was surprised at the inclusion of the 17th at Architect's Club. It's a hike from Philly to get there as is Iron Valley. My suggestion to Joe about the 13th at Jeffersonville panned out. I suggested the 17th at Lederach but Joe chose the 9th.

Steve,

Agree with you on Jeffersonville, #13 is the best hole on the course.  As far as Lederach is concerned, IMO, there are 5 better holes on the front nine than #9.

Nice picture, I assume that was your drive.

[Michael Huber]

The more I think about it, the more i believe its easier to come up with "18 golf holes i hate" in philadelphia than it is to find the best 18.

For the record, I like the 13th hole at jeffersonville, but 6th is my favorite.

[Mike Cirba]

Joe was kind enough to solicit my opinion, but I probably added as much confusion as clarity to his process.   I ended up suggesting 77 holes on 46 courses, which he told me had his head swimmiing.

Joe and I don't always agree but I respect his opinion and he was under some self-imposed restrictions.   First, the article was for a regional newspaper, the Philadelphia Inquirer, which reaches well beyond the city and immediate burbs, thus the need to widen the lens.   That in itself made getting a single list distilled down a challenge.    Further, he wanted it to be a "golf course", with the need for balance, with short and long par threes, reachable and unreachable par fives, etc....and finally, he wanted only a single selection from each course as well as a mix of high-end, middle of the road, and budget bargain courses.

That made it a daunting task.

In the end, I think Joe selected 9 of the holes of the 77 I nominated, and about 13 of the 46 courses I selected were represented.

Anyone want to guess which 9 holes?  

[Mike Cirba]

p.s.....Steve, can you enlarge that picture for us?   I can't quite make out each leg hair.   

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Any reason why holes were not selected as to their actual position on the course ?

Would have been really interesting to see a total 18 for just the high-end, middle of the road and budget bargain layouts so people could see all three separately.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

In the end, I think Joe selected 9 of the holes of the 77 I nominated, and about 13 of the 46 courses I selected were represented.

Anyone want to guess which 9 holes?  

Mike, I'll take the bait:

1. Walnut Lane Golf Course, Philadelphia. No. 15, 340 yards, par 4.
2. Bulle Rock Golf Club, Havre de Grace, Md. No. 13, 476 yards, par 4.
3. Golf Course at Glen Mills, Delaware County. No. 2. 431 yards, par 4.
4. Bella Vista Golf Course, Montgomery
5. Deerfield Golf & Tennis Club, Newark, Del. No. 1, 523 yards, par 5.
6. Jeffersonville Golf Club, Montgomery County. No. 13, 430 yards, par 4.
7. Inniscrone Golf Club, Avondale, Chester County. No. 3, 317 yards, par 4.
8. Cobbs Creek Golf Club, West Philadelphia. No. 17, 193 yards, par 3.
9. Wyncote Golf Club, Oxford, Chester County. No. 9, 580 yards, par 5.
10. Lederach Golf Club, Harleysville, Montgomery County. No. 9, 379 yards, par 4.
11. Raven's Claw Golf Club, Pottstown. No. 14, 137 yards, par 3.
12. Renault Winery Resort & Golf, Egg Harbor City, N.J. No. 8, 322 yards, par 4.
13. Broad Run Golfer's Club, West Chester. No. 1, 498 yards, par 5.
14. Makefield Highlands Golf Club, Yardley, Bucks County. No. 15, 423 yards, par 4.
15. Scotland Run Golf Club, Williamstown, Gloucester County. No. 16. 402 yards, par 4.
16. Paxon Hollow Country Club, Marple Township, Delaware County. No. 13, 363 yards, par 4.
17. The Architects Club, Lopatcong, N.J. No. 17, 200 yards, par 3.
18. Iron Valley Golf Club, Lebanon. No. 13, 588 yards, par 5.

The 15th at MH is the best hole there in IMHO (it's my home course) and certainly should be in the discussion for this list.  I also like the 5th and the 10th.

Interesting the 17th makes it from Cobb's.  I would say the current 5th or 12th would be my pick from that course.  BTW, I love the pictures of the 17th at Cobb's on the website... only one problem, it shows the 13th fairway and the 18th green.  We have to pull Logan back into the fold again so that we get our PR engine back online!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here is Joe Logan's response to those critical of his selections:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=4209&pid=11#

[Mike Cirba]

Very good guesses, Mr. Walsh. 

You hit 7 of 9. 

[astavrides]

the scotland run and walnut lane holes instead of the ones he chose at inniscrone and lederach?

[Joe Bausch]

My guess is Mike C would have taken Renault and SR as the other two courses.

[Joe Bausch]

Steve:

I quickly reviewed the list -- the 17th at The Architect's Club ?

How come they forgot the better 9th hole there ?

Also, the listing spreads way south to the greater Baltimore area with Bulle Rock ?

Also, no hole from Morgan Hill ? Also, the par-4 9th at Lederach? There are better holes to choose from there in my mind.

Joe L needs to get in the field a bit more.

Opinions, Matt.  Opinions. 

What I would like to hear from you MDub is your favorite public 9 holes from the Philly/Pennsy area.  I don't want to stress you by asking for your favorite 18 as you and I both know the public courses around here are closer to dreadful than first class. 

Please, indulge me!

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

I will be glad to include such a thing -- I'll also try to include a 18-hole layout where the holes selected are from their actual position on the course itself.

Given the article ranged in area from nearly Baltimore to the northern fringe of the Phila area I am sure I will be able to come up with something -- even if the area does have subpar overall depth -- I'm sure I can squeeze in an 18-hole allstar team.

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

You got one of two selections correct.

I should mention that in a number of cases, I nominated up to three holes on a single course, and in some cases, the hole that was picked would have been my third best.   

That was the case with both 17 at Cobbs (Geoff and I are in concurrence there) and 16 at Scotland Run.

[Kyle Harris]

Let's throw a wrench in the works:

The 2nd Hole at our local muni, the venerable and elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Club should be on this list.

So should the 4th at Middletown CC, and maybe even the 12th.

[astavrides]

Joe,

You got one of two selections correct.

I should mention that in a number of cases, I nominated up to three holes on a single course, and in some cases, the hole that was picked would have been my third best.   

That was the case with both 17 at Cobbs (Geoff and I are in concurrence there) and 16 at Scotland Run.

so I got one correct too?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Joe,

You got one of two selections correct.

I should mention that in a number of cases, I nominated up to three holes on a single course, and in some cases, the hole that was picked would have been my third best.   

That was the case with both 17 at Cobbs (Geoff and I are in concurrence there) and 16 at Scotland Run.

Mike/Joe,

On a restored Cobb's, the 17th might have real competition for making the top 5... I'd put a restored (old #'s) 5, 6, 7, 12, and 13 ahead of it.  2, 3, 4, 11, and a lengthened 18 might also knock it down with the addition of some back tees and some TLC.

Of course if we really restored the ORIGINAL design it wouldn't make the top 18...

[Matt_Ward]

Guys, when people say "if" such a hole is restored or "if" such a thing is done -- the listing needs to reflect a what "is" reality.

[Mike Cirba]

Alex,

Yes, you were half right, as well.

Matt,

The list does reflect today's reality.   Geoff is just speculating at what could be.