Philly's Public "Dream 18"

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I'm just about set to present my counter all-public Phila 18 but before doing so I need a bit of assistance -- my circle area doesn't include the State of Maryland -- I just don't see how it can be included as part of the Phila immediate golf landscape. One can also say the same for Delaware and any layouts south of Newark. Ditto to those courses that are on the doorstep of other major locales such as Harrisburg or Lancaster.

I do concede that South Jersey is part of the mixture -- but areas in Jersey north of I-78 would not be -- with that in mind, a place like The Architect's would still qualify for inclusion. Courses that are south of the AC expressway would be OK -- but known north of it unless they are immediately adjacent to the Delaware River.

The areas north of Phila would be in play up to where one hits I-80 and any courses that are immediately above or below that location.

Sorry to provide a mega monster map but frankly the original inclusion of layout was too far spread in my mind.

One other thing I plan on doing -- post holes only in their original position as found on the scorecard -- and to provide a regulation par-72 layout that includes a combo of par-3, par-4 and par-5 holes. I did this for Jersey Golfer a few years back and it's not e-z so please be patient with me as I sort through my recommendations this weekend.

[Matt_Ward]

I'm going to post my allstar 18 but will do so with nine holes at a clip.

The 18-hole layout will feature a par-72 layout with the holes selected from where they are positioned on their respective layout.

1st hole --

2nd hole --

3rd hole -- Inniscrone / 317 yards (4) -- A peach of a short par-4 hole -- Gil Hanse certainly demonstrates here the value of such holes.

4th hole -- Sand Barrens (south) / 439 yards (4) -- Double-green here and simply a fine alternate green situation. With the green on the right side used -- the tee shot becomes even more demanding. Shaping shots and both greens require some careful thought.

5th hole -- Morgan Hill / 546 yards (5) -- Just a great hole because the tee shot must be in the fairway and well-positioned. Architect Kelly Blake Moran did a stellar job with a cross bunker that cuts off the middle of the fairway. The player must decide whether to fly the cross bunker of lay up before it. Laying up only increases the distance and demands. Getting a par-5 that make better players think carefully is no e-z feat. The 5th at MH is the kind of hole that failure to think and execute properly will mean that rare bogey six for the better player. On the flip side the hole is not overly demanding for the bogey shooter.

6th hole --

7th hole --

8th hole --

9th hole -- The Architect's / 450 yards (4) -- Plays generally back into the prevailing SW winds. The tee shot doesn't offer you a glimpse of the green but it pays to keep the ball down the left side -- water is an issue on the approach and the green is quite special with plenty of subtle but effective contours.

10th hole -- Buena Vista / 505 yards (5) -- Hole gives more of a Pine Valley look and the Gorden design really offers a range of options. The green can be reached in two blows but the frontal bunker area really must be negotiated with care -- whether with the 2nd or 3rd shot. Course gets lost in the sauce because it's not on the main track near the other AC publc layouts.

11th hole --

12th hole --

13th hole -- Scotland Run / 213 yards (3) -- Plenty of attention -- too much I might add -- is paid to the holes along the quarry -- especially the par-4 16th which is one of the most ovrehyped holes at the course. The par-3 13th is well protected in the front by a very well-positioned bunker and the green is no e-z matter if nerves are an issue.

14th hole -- Twisted Dune / 414 yards (4) -- So many fine holes at TD -- but the 14th is a gem. The tee shot must be played well because the approach is really demanding - especially with the pin cut to the far right behind plenty of protection. Named Grindel's Walk and the player needs to

15th hole --

16th hole --

17th hole -- Cobbs Creek / 195 yards (3) -- Plenty of things have been said about this hole. Just need a first rate shot off the tee to a demanding target. Nuff said.

18th hole -- Cape May National / 446 yards (4) -- A bear of a finishing hole. Water plays down the left side and then cuts near the green itself. The more you play to the right the more demanding the approach becomes because of the more challenging angle and likely increased distance. Par is no small feat -- and frankly bogey is no automatic should nerves overcome your senses when playing this wonderful ending hole.

** One other thing -- Lederach didn't make my first nine listed but will have one hole included. Care to guess which one ?

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

    What's up with 6 out of 9 in Jersey?

[Joe Bausch]

If you have a brain in your head Matt (!), you've chosen the par 4 8th at Lederach.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

Speaking of brains -- why don't you wait to see the final 9 holes listed before barking prematurely?

Mike:

Come out of the clouds of private golf in Phila and understand the reality -- the quality public holes are few and far on the Pennsy side of the Delaware. The Jersey side generates more of the interest.

One other thing -- I've listed nine (9) holes and three (3) -- not two (2) are from the Pennsy side. Look, I'm going to list at least one more Pennsy layout with Lederach so don't despair -- just yet.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

Speaking of brains -- why don't you wait to see the final 9 holes listed before barking prematurely?

Hmmm, you said take a guess Ward-o. 

[Joe Bausch]

About 4 years ago I put together my own "top Philly 18" corresponding to the hole number on each course.  I've been meaning to do another since I've played probably 50 more courses since I originally put this on my web page.  But I know how long it takes to ponder all the holes!

Dream Philly Public Course (from my web page, circa 2006)

Front nine:

1.   Jeffersonville (par 4, 448 yards).
2.   Bulle Rock (par 5, 555 yards)
3.   Pine Hill (par 4, 442 yards)
4.   Inniscrone (par 4, 435 yards from the tips).
5.   Hickory Valley - Presidential (par 3, 165 yards from the tips).
6.   Glen Mills (par 5, 547 yards)
7.   Shore Gate (par 4, 401 yards)
8.   Honeybrook (par 3, 212 yards).
9.   Architects Club (par 4, 447 yards).

Back nine:

10.   Pine Hill (par 4, 449 yards)
11.   Bulle Rock (par 5, 624 yards)
12.   Wyncote (par 4, 342 yards).
13.   Inniscrone (par 4, 380 yards).
14.   Bella Vista (par 3, 152 yards).
15.   Makefield Highlands (par 4, 423 yards).
16.   Scotland Run (par 4, 402 yards)
17.   Architects Club (par 3, 180 yards).
18.   Scotland Run (par 5, 530 yards)

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

The 16th at SR is way overhyped -- did you see the par-3 13th ?

You included Bulle Rock - which really is in the Baltimore suburbs -- I'm mean how far do you want to extend the Phila area -- maybe you could throw in some North Jersey courses too.

You also included multiple selections from the same course -- Pine Hill, which incidentally is no longer public -- although I do agree with you on the selection of the 10th. I only picked one hole per course to spread the selections around.

#17 (Architect's) and #18 at SR. Surely you jest.

If you wanted a somewhat unique hole -- instead of the 7th at Shoregate -- how bout the re-created Lido hole at McCullough's Emerald Links?

I also think your underplaying of the Jersey side -- not that Pine Hill is no longer public -- also undercuts what the Jersey side of public golf now provides.

The good news for Phila public golf is that places like Morgan Hill and Lederach have now entered the scene and clearly made a major impact.

[archie_struthers]

 

I was disappointed that the Jersey shore courses were left out...of course I'm a little prejudiced

[Joe Bausch]

Perhaps both of you missed that I wrote my list was composed back in 2006 (if not even earlier, I forget)!  I've been meaning to do another since I've played probably 50 more courses since I originally put this on my web page, including many courses in Jersey, including the Shore.  

In due time.

Matt:  why do you find #16 at SR to be "way overhyped".  I'm curious.

No, Matt, I did not see the par 3 13th.  I've played SR probably 20 times, but each time the 13th hole was closed and I missed it.  

[Bruce Katona]

Good debate.  I'm waiting to see what Matt opines. 

Archie: Which of the holes would you care to nominate?

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

The 16th at Architect's is a scenic site but nothing more. The bunker complex provides a "cape" like element but the width of the fairway and the overall length of the hole doesn't really make the bunker complex that big a deal for most players to overcome. It's a good hole -- is it really great and noteworthy -- not really.

Joe, the Shore area of Jersey would represent no less than nine (9) holes on anyone's list because the Pennsy side is that pathetic -- minus a few places -- thank heavens places like Morgan Hill and Lederach have entered the scene.

Joe, I can only wonder when speaking about SR's 13th hole if the thing that was "closed" was your mind when playing it that many times.

One final thing -- if you can list your top 18 as a par-72 course with only one selection per course and have them inserted into your "personal 18" as they are listed on their respective course. Thanks ...

Gents:

One other thing -- there are a few holes of note that I would not include on my single 18 but would be a second team selection. The 4th at TD is one that quickly comes to mind.

[Matt_Ward]

Lederach is a fascinating addition to the greater Phila scene -- it follows-up quite nicely from what Moran did with Morgan Hill and for those in the immediate Phila area is much closer to access since Harleysville is not that far away for many.

[Joe Bausch]

Dear Matt,

      We're (still) waiting (for your awesome 9 hole, ahem, 18 hole layout).

Sincerely,
Judge Elijah Smails
=================

[Matt_Ward]

THE FINAL NINE HOLES STARTS FOR ME WITH THE ADDITION OF

WYNCOTE'S 11TH HOLE / 461 YARDS !!!

Eight more to follow ...

*****

I'm going to post my allstar 18 but will do so with nine holes at a clip.

The 18-hole layout will feature a par-72 layout with the holes selected from where they are positioned on their respective layout.

1st hole --

2nd hole --

3rd hole -- Inniscrone / 317 yards (4) -- A peach of a short par-4 hole -- Gil Hanse certainly demonstrates here the value of such holes.

4th hole -- Sand Barrens (south) / 439 yards (4) -- Double-green here and simply a fine alternate green situation. With the green on the right side used -- the tee shot becomes even more demanding. Shaping shots and both greens require some careful thought.

5th hole -- Morgan Hill / 546 yards (5) -- Just a great hole because the tee shot must be in the fairway and well-positioned. Architect Kelly Blake Moran did a stellar job with a cross bunker that cuts off the middle of the fairway. The player must decide whether to fly the cross bunker of lay up before it. Laying up only increases the distance and demands. Getting a par-5 that make better players think carefully is no e-z feat. The 5th at MH is the kind of hole that failure to think and execute properly will mean that rare bogey six for the better player. On the flip side the hole is not overly demanding for the bogey shooter.

6th hole --

7th hole --

8th hole --

9th hole -- The Architect's / 450 yards (4) -- Plays generally back into the prevailing SW winds. The tee shot doesn't offer you a glimpse of the green but it pays to keep the ball down the left side -- water is an issue on the approach and the green is quite special with plenty of subtle but effective contours.

10th hole -- Buena Vista / 505 yards (5) -- Hole gives more of a Pine Valley look and the Gorden design really offers a range of options. The green can be reached in two blows but the frontal bunker area really must be negotiated with care -- whether with the 2nd or 3rd shot. Course gets lost in the sauce because it's not on the main track near the other AC publc layouts.

11th hole -- Wyncote / 461 yards (4) -- just a bear of a hole -- rarely gets played to its par figure. Need solid drive and no less a quality approach.

12th hole --

13th hole -- Scotland Run / 213 yards (3) -- Plenty of attention -- too much I might add -- is paid to the holes along the quarry -- especially the par-4 16th which is one of the most ovrehyped holes at the course. The par-3 13th is well protected in the front by a very well-positioned bunker and the green is no e-z matter if nerves are an issue.

14th hole -- Twisted Dune / 414 yards (4) -- So many fine holes at TD -- but the 14th is a gem. The tee shot must be played well because the approach is really demanding - especially with the pin cut to the far right behind plenty of protection. Named Grindel's Walk and the player needs to

15th hole --

16th hole --

17th hole -- Cobbs Creek / 195 yards (3) -- Plenty of things have been said about this hole. Just need a first rate shot off the tee to a demanding target. Nuff said.

18th hole -- Cape May National / 446 yards (4) -- A bear of a finishing hole. Water plays down the left side and then cuts near the green itself. The more you play to the right the more demanding the approach becomes because of the more challenging angle and likely increased distance. Par is no small feat -- and frankly bogey is no automatic should nerves overcome your senses when playing this wonderful ending hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Hey Joe:

I'll throw another into the mix -- Lederach's par-5 12th hole -- demanding but fair hole -- only those with sufficient skills / guts can venture to the extreme back tees.

I gave your 8th hole some consideration -- but it was quite fleeting when compared to the 12th.

[Matt_Ward]

Oops -- forgot to add it to the listing of holes already cited ...

I'm going to post my allstar 18 but will do so with nine holes at a clip.

The 18-hole layout will feature a par-72 layout with the holes selected from where they are positioned on their respective layout.

1st hole --

2nd hole --

3rd hole -- Inniscrone / 317 yards (4) -- A peach of a short par-4 hole -- Gil Hanse certainly demonstrates here the value of such holes.

4th hole -- Sand Barrens (south) / 439 yards (4) -- Double-green here and simply a fine alternate green situation. With the green on the right side used -- the tee shot becomes even more demanding. Shaping shots and both greens require some careful thought.

5th hole -- Morgan Hill / 546 yards (5) -- Just a great hole because the tee shot must be in the fairway and well-positioned. Architect Kelly Blake Moran did a stellar job with a cross bunker that cuts off the middle of the fairway. The player must decide whether to fly the cross bunker of lay up before it. Laying up only increases the distance and demands. Getting a par-5 that make better players think carefully is no e-z feat. The 5th at MH is the kind of hole that failure to think and execute properly will mean that rare bogey six for the better player. On the flip side the hole is not overly demanding for the bogey shooter.

6th hole --

7th hole --

8th hole --

9th hole -- The Architect's / 450 yards (4) -- Plays generally back into the prevailing SW winds. The tee shot doesn't offer you a glimpse of the green but it pays to keep the ball down the left side -- water is an issue on the approach and the green is quite special with plenty of subtle but effective contours.

10th hole -- Buena Vista / 505 yards (5) -- Hole gives more of a Pine Valley look and the Gorden design really offers a range of options. The green can be reached in two blows but the frontal bunker area really must be negotiated with care -- whether with the 2nd or 3rd shot. Course gets lost in the sauce because it's not on the main track near the other AC publc layouts.

11th hole -- Wyncote / 461 yards (4) -- just a bear of a hole -- rarely gets played to its par figure. Need solid drive and no less a quality approach.

12th hole -- Lederach / 654 yards (5) -- Need to play threwe quality shots in order -- plenty of bumps along the way for those who err even in the slightest.

13th hole -- Scotland Run / 213 yards (3) -- Plenty of attention -- too much I might add -- is paid to the holes along the quarry -- especially the par-4 16th which is one of the most ovrehyped holes at the course. The par-3 13th is well protected in the front by a very well-positioned bunker and the green is no e-z matter if nerves are an issue.

14th hole -- Twisted Dune / 414 yards (4) -- So many fine holes at TD -- but the 14th is a gem. The tee shot must be played well because the approach is really demanding - especially with the pin cut to the far right behind plenty of protection. Named Grindel's Walk and the player needs to

15th hole --

16th hole --

17th hole -- Cobbs Creek / 195 yards (3) -- Plenty of things have been said about this hole. Just need a first rate shot off the tee to a demanding target. Nuff said.

18th hole -- Cape May National / 446 yards (4) -- A bear of a finishing hole. Water plays down the left side and then cuts near the green itself. The more you play to the right the more demanding the approach becomes because of the more challenging angle and likely increased distance. Par is no small feat -- and frankly bogey is no automatic should nerves overcome your senses when playing this wonderful ending hole.

[archie_struthers]

 

I still have a hard time considering AC as a public course given my fond remembrances of it as the Frasers' club.  This being said my new favorite hole there is #16 , which  has some fabulous links attributes.

At Twisted ,  my favorite hole is probably #11

[Matt_Ward]

Archie:

You raise a good point about ACCC -- it's long time history as a private club makes it tough for me too in seeing it as a public course now.

Gents:

In continuing on -- I now add my first par-3 on the front side -- it's from a layout that gets little real attention from many but it's pedigree still resonates for those who have eyes to see. George Fazio's first design was at Atlantis (now called Ocean County at Atlantis) -- located in Tuckerton -- near the Jersey Shore. The par-3 6th at Atlantis is a gem. You hit from an elevated tee and the green sits behind a pond with a fronting natural sand bunker that gently fees itself into the pond. The green runs diagonally from lower left to back right and pity the player who avoids the fronting H20 and goes over the green -- deadsville for sure. A completely natural hole and never lacking for real drama.

[Matt_Ward]

Archie:

I would add the 16th at ACCC as well. Great mid-length par-4 hole. Good call on your part.

Curious to get your take on you view the 14th hole I mentioned at TD.

Gents:

Mea culpa on my part -- I left out the yardage for the 6th at Ocean County at Atlantis -- plays 190 yards -- although because of the elevated tee a bit shorter.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt - FYI, Cecil County, MD is part of the Philly DMA.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

OK -- it's within a 75-mile radius so I'd include it. Thanks.

Likely, I might add one hole from Bulle Rock into the mix.

Dan, curious to see your listing.

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey Matt , I like a lot of holes at Twisted , even ten years later....I really think that the green could have been much  better at 14 , if I could change it would flatten the right side a bit and give a couple more good pins behind the front right bunker

 this being said it is probably the hardest hole and requires a really good tee shot and second ..


.Eleven is my favorite because it is the most Scottish of all the holes and has the best overall green complex.   We have a new tee on the plans that is waiting to be built that makes the second shot fairly long and requires a shot that runs in for all but the longest of hitters.  It's also semi blind and has some nice quirk to it

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I think the par5  2nd at Bulle Rock could qualify but for me it's an 83mile trip at 1.35 hrs. Atlantis in Tuckerton, NJ is a 93mile trip at close to 2 hours. I do play the NJ shore courses as I frequently spend weekends there in season.

I do like your choice of 10 at Buena Vista. It's an overlooked course IMO.

I still prefer 13 at Jeffersonville over 13 at Scotland Run but if you're looking for a par 3 on the back 9, 15 at Jeffersonville is a quality hole @ 215y from the tips.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Do you have any pics of the hole at Jeffersonville ?

I like the 2nd at Bulle Rock too -- solid hole that really turns on the juice after the fairly benign opener there.